1
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
IN RE:
INVESTIGATION
STATEMENT OF: ATTILA MADYAS TOTH
DATE: August 14, 1997
TIME: Began: 9:00 a.m.
Ended: 10:30 a.m.
PLACE: Criminal Justice Center
Office of the State Attorney
Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida
REPORTED BY: Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RMR
Registered Merit Reporter
Notary Public
State of Florida at Large
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
Office of the State Attorney
3 Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
Clearwater, Florida 33760
4 Attorney for State of Florida
5 KEVIN DARKEN, ESQUIRE
Trenam Kemker Scharf Barkin
6 Frye O'Neill & Mullis, P.A.
Barnett Plaza, Suite 2700
7 101 East Kennedy Boulevard
Tampa, Florida 33602
8 Attorney for the Witness
9
ALSO PRESENT:
10
WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
11 JORGE E. CARBASQUILLO, Detective
City of Clearwater Police Department
12
13
14
15
16
17
18 INDEX
19 EXAMINATION PAGE
20 BY MR. McGARRY 3
BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS 31
21 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO 51
22
23 CERTIFICATE OF OATH 65
24
25
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
3
1 The deponent herein,
2 ATTILA MADYAS TOTH,
3 being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
5 examined and testified as follows:
6 MR. McGARRY: Would you like to put anything
7 on the record in reference to the subpoena that he's
8 here in reference to?
9 MR. DARKEN: Sure.
10 Mr. Toth is here pursuant to the.
11 State Attorney subpoena for an investigatory
12 deposition. Concerning his Fifth Amendment privileges
13 against self-incrimination, he's testifying under the
14 immunity provisions of Florida Statute 914.04.
15 EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. McGARRY:
17 Q. All right. For the record, your name, please.
18 A. My name?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Attila Madyas Toth.
21 Q. And your date of birth?
22 A. `67, X.
23 Q. And are you a U.S. Citizen?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What country are you a citizen of?
4
1 A. Hungarian.
2 Q. Hungarian?
3 A. (The witness nods affirmatively.)
4 Q. How long have you been in the United States?
5 A. Since `92.
6 Q. And do you have a Green Card?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. How long have you lived in Clearwater?
9 A. I was living in Clearwater until October, `96, and
10 then I am living X right now.
11 Q. You're in X?
12 A. (The witness nods affirmatively.)
13 Is just basically almost Clearwater.
14 Q. So in 1992 you moved to Clearwater?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. And why did you move to Clearwater?
17 A. Come to the Church.
18 Q. Were you a member how long have you been a
19 member of the Church?
20 A. Around that time.
21 Q. `92?
22 A. Yeah. Before that I was no -- like in Hungary the
23 Church at that time not existed, just the new books came
24 out, so ...
25 Q. So did you join the Church in Hungary or did you
5
1 join the Church in Clearwater?
2 A. Officially I joined here.
3 Q. Okay. And when did you become Staff?
4 I take it you're Staff now?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You're not Staff now?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You were Staff though?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. Okay. When did you become Staff?
11 A. `92, June.
12 Q. Okay. And what position did you take on Staff?
13 A. Let me see. I was cook, and then I was a
14 housekeeper, and then I was a night cleaner, and then I was
15 security.
16 Q. When was it you became involved in security?
17 A. I think it was `93, 1st of July.
18 Q. And during that period of time, where did you
19 live?
20 A. On the Hacienda Gardens.
21 Q. Okay. Did you have a roommate?
22 A. Yeah, I have more roommates over the time when I
23 was there.
24 Q. Okay. Were you getting any spiritual counsel
25 during that period of time?
6
1 A. Yes, some.
2 Q. Who was your Senior?
3 A. My Senior, it's the Security Chief, which -- which
4 I had like three or four different Security Chiefs the four
5 year I was there, so
6 Q. Okay. Why don't you name them for me.
7 A. There was one called Bruce Botcher, there was one
8 called Arthur Baxter, there was one called -- God, I don't
9 remember the names.
10 Q. How about Alfonso Barcenas?
11 A. No.
12 Q. How about Paul Kellerhaus?
13 A. He was the Senior of my Senior.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. He wasn't immediate Senior of me.
16 Q. Sam Ghiora?
17 A. No, he wasn't Senior to me whatsoever.
18 Q. Okay. All right. Who was your Spiritual Adviser?
19 A. Don't remember names. It was --
20 Q. Who was your Auditor?
21 A. I don't remember the names. There was a guy from
22 Somewhere in another state, like from New York, I'm not
23 sure ...
24 Q. Did you receive auditing during that period?
25 A. Yeah.
7
1 Q. Are you continuing to receive auditing?
2 A. Right now not.
3 Q. Okay. What level did you receive on the spiritual
4 side?
5 A. I went up to middle of Grade 0 if ...
6 Q. Okay. What level did you receive on the other
7 side, on the training side?
8 A. On the training side I was on management training,
9 and I did my -- it's called -- all the trainings is
10 necessary for the second training period, was security
11 mainly training.
12 Q. Who did you receive your security training from?
13 A. Just sitting in the course room and study the
14 materials book together for security.
15 Q. Who was the person that was in charge of that
16 implementation to you during that period of time?
17 A. Basically, whoever is in the course room as a
18 course supervisor.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. It's -- the names doesn't say anything, because
21 it's always the friend. Like someone is there in the course
22 room and they don't necessary immediate to what I'm study,
23 because the study tech is completely different. They are
24 not teaching things, they just ...
25 Q. All right. November of `95, which is the period
8
1 of time that we're going to center in on just a minute,
2 which is the time period that Lisa McPherson was staying at
3 the Cabana, were you employed as a security person at that
4 time?
5 A. Yeah, I was security.
6 Q. Who was your supervisor, who was your Senior,
7 Baxter, Kellerhaus, Ghiora?
8 A. It's basically -- I remember Paul Kellerhaus being
9 the Senior of Security, and probably Arthur Baxter the
10 Security Chief, I'm not sure.
13 Q. I know how that works, it's kind of complicated.
12 A. Yeah, there was some changes of the time, always.
13 Q. Right.
14 A. It was long time ago.
15 Q. You don't live in Hacienda Gardens now?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Where do you live, in Dunedin?
18 A. In Dunedin, yeah.
19 Q. And why did you move to Dunedin?
20 A. Because I'm not on Staff anymore and basically in
21 Hacienda Gardens --
22 Q. You're still living on Church property?
23 A. No.
24 Q. This is your own house?
25 A. No, I rent a house.
9
1 Q. Rent a house, apartment?
2 A. It's on basically a three-plex and I have one part
3 of three-plex.
4 Q. Okay. Is that three-plex owned by the Church or
5 is it owned by a private individual?
6 A. No, it's a private individual.
7 Q. So you're not on Staff anymore?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Are you employed?
10 A. No.
13 Q. You're not working now?
12 A. No, I can't. I'm sick.
13 Q. What's wrong with you?
14 A. I got cancer. I have a tumor about this big still
15 behind my stomach.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. I'm just getting a little bit better. I had huge
18 chemotherapy done on me and I'm kind of just recovering out
19 of it.
20 Q. Okay. Well, I wish you success.
21 A. Thanks.
22 Q. Let's go back to November of `95. Do you recall
23 this period of time when Lisa McPherson was staying at the
24 Cabana?
25 A. More or less.
10
3. Q. Did you know Lisa McPherson?
2 A. No. I didn't heard her name whatsoever until this
3 thing happened.
4 Q. Okay. Did you ever meet Lisa McPherson?
5 A. No, not personally.
6 Q. Okay. What exactly were your duties during this
7 November period of time as a security person for the
8 Church of Scientology?
9 A. Being night security, watch what -- checking and
10 watching, make sure the base is secure for the night.
11 Q. Was that in the main building, Fort Harrison?
12 A. The, Fort Harrison building security booth.
13 Q. And were you aware that there was a watch going on
14 and Lisa McPherson was in the Cabana area?
15 A. Yep.
16 Q. Okay. Were you ever involved in the security or a
17 night watchman outside of her door?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You weren't?
20 Were you aware that there were security people
21 outside of her door?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Okay. Can you remember who those people were?
24 A. I recall particular two person outside, and I
25 think one of them was Sam Ghiora, the other one was
11
1 Alfonso Barcenas.
2 Q. All right. Were you ever involved in any of the
3 processes that were going on in order to help Lisa McPherson
4 in the Church at the Cabana?
5 A. I don't know what you mean by "involved."
6 Q. Were you involved in any of the watch outside of
7 her door? Did you --
8 A. It's like --
9 Q. Assist anybody in reference to the watch that
10 was taking place?
11 A. I think when some of. the guys had to go to eat for
12 few minutes, I was there, standing outside door.
13 Q. Did you ever hear --
14 A. Short time.
15 Q. -- hear or notice anything that was going on
16 inside?
17 A. I'm sorry, would you repeat that?
18 Q. Did you hear or notice anything that was going on
19 with Lisa any of those times?
20 A. No. Except one time when we get the things
21 outside so she don't hurt herself, otherwise not.
22 Q. Well, tell me about that.
23 A. Basically, she was making a mess in the room
24 inside, and there was a probability she may hurt herself, so
25 we had to get out everything that was breakable, like
12
1 mirrors, sconces from the wall, things like that.
2 Q. Who is "we"? Who was assisting you?
3 A. It's -- no, I was assisting them, actually. And
4 that's the medical personnel who was there, like the girls.
5 I don't remember exactly who was the girls, but there was
6 like one of the medical personnel.
7 Q. That would be Nancy Johnson or Laura Arrunada?
8 A. No, no, the one who was on watch.
9 Q. Oh, not an officer, but a girl that was helping on
10 the watch?
11 A. Yeah, the girl that was helping on the watch.
12 Yeah, somebody was inside always to make sure that she don't
13 hurt herself.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. And this was a girl always. So whoever was inside
16 was taking things out, and I helping, going in getting
17 stuff, like mirrors off of the wall, screwing off things
18 which she, would maybe use to hurt herself. This was only
19 time I was inside, I think.
20 Q. Did you see her?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Was she on her feet or in the bed?
23 A. She was in the bed.
24 Q. Okay. Do you remember what date that was that you
25 saw her?
13
1 A. This could be one of the first days, but I don't
2 remember exactly which one was that.
3 Q. So it was early in her stay?
4 A. Yeah, it's very early. This was the time when she
5 went kind of violent on the first time.
6 Q. All right. Did you write a report on your
7 observations?
8 A. I don't recall writing report. I don't report --
9 I don't recall writing reports.
10 Q. Did you ever write reports when you were a
11 Security Guard?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay. And what would those reports be about,
14 things that happened during the watch?
15 A. Yeah, things that happens during the watch. If
16 anything happen -- is just like I'm writing reports only if
17 there was any special happening.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. And I am not 100 percent sure if did I wrote
20 report on this one, because whoever was there was supposed
21 to write a report from first hand.
22 Q. So you -- you may have written a report, but
23 you're not sure?
24 A. I may, but I don't sure -- I'm not sure. I think
25 I may write two or three reports on the whole thing.
14
1 Q. On Lisa Mcpherson's stay?
2 A. Yeah. But I am not 100 percent sure. I was in
3 communication with the people and I was talk to on the
4 phone, and that's maybe sometime was enough, so ...
5 Q. All right. In the event that you may have written
6 a report, who might you have given the report to?
7 A. Leave it on the desk so the daytime can take it up
8 to the CS.
9 Q. What desk?
10 A. The -- the Security Office, in the Security Office
11 had the basket on the desk.
12 Q. Where is the Security Office?
13 A. It's in the front of the hotel in the garage.
14 Q. In the garage downstairs?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. Where would a report go if -- let's say you had a
17 prowler or a trespasser and you noticed that and you had
18 contact with that person. And you would then be required to
19 a write a report, correct?
20 A. Yeah, then I would write a report to the
21 Security Chief.
22 Q. Okay. And where --
23 A. But that's completely different case than to --
24 Q. Okay. I want to know how that works though. How
25 would he get that?
15
1 A. Basically, in the security, I -- if something --
2 bypasser or somebody goes by or -- then I would put it into
3 the computer as a note, or I just write a note on a piece of
4 paper for the Security Chief, this happened last night, and
5 I leave it on the desk so they get it.
6 Q. Okay. Now, what happens to that, if you know?
7 Where does that go? Does that document get destroyed, does
8 it get put in a file, does it get put in your folder, in a
9 security folder?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Where does it go?
12 A. No. That's usually just an information, it gets
13 destroyed.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Whatever is on the computer, that stays in the
16 computer.
17 Q. All right. Let's talk about the reports that you
18 might have written in reference to Lisa McPherson. If you
19 were to have written one, and you said you might have, you
20 would have left it at the Security Office?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. On the table?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. How -- where would that report go to? Who might
25 it have gone to?
16
1 A. The CS.
2 Q. And who is that?
3 A. What's his name? He is the Senior CS,
4 Kartuzinski.
5 Q. Kartuzinski?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Now, how would you make sure it got to him?
8 A. I had the guy comes after me to make sure it's get
9 there.
10 Q. You would hand it to somebody?
11 A. No. I leave it on the desk and I show that --
12 like there is a procedure when the other security guy comes
13 in, I kind of turn over everything so they know what's going
14 on. And obviously, part of it I say, here is this paper
15 needs to go to the CS, and then they make sure it gets
16 there.
17 Q. Did you ever -- I mean, would you put "CS" on top
18 of it?
19 A. Yeah. Yeah, there is a routing --
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. -- on it, so it's
22 Q. So how would you right now, if you were to write
23 one -- I know you don't remember if you wrote one -- how
24 would you title it? How would you put on top the title?
25 A. Like Senior CS line, my name, date, report, or
17
1 whatever at the title, and noting.
2 Q. Okay. How would the -- that document get to
3 Mr. Kartuzinski, if you know?
4 A. Yeah. Basically, there is a Com system built in
5 the Church and the Com system is, I put into out desk and a
6 Com Runner comes, picks it up and takes it, like sorts them
7 like the Post Office and then goes to.
8 Q. How many Com Runners did you have at that period,
9 if you know?
10 A. No, I don't know.
11 Q. Were they --
12 A. Yeah, it's not necessary happens that way.
13 It's -- this is one of the way. But we -- like very
14 important papers, which needs to get there, Security has
15 areas, maybe one. just guys pick it up and walk it up and
16 give to the CS, so he gets it right away.
17 Q. So maybe a Security Guard would have delivered it?
18 A. Yeah, if it's very important.
19 Q. If it's important?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Did you ever deliver security papers up to
22 Mr. Kartuzinski?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. You did? .
25 A. Yeah, I did.
18
1 Q. To Mr. Kartuzinski?
2 A. Yeah. If I deliver papers, he is usually there.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. And I give it to him.
5 Q. Were any of those papers anything to do with
6 Lisa McPherson?
7 A. I don't recall. Not necessarily.
8 Q. What other papers would he review from the
9 Security Office?
10 A. Anything important. I don't know. It's just like
11 basically I remember walking up to those offices a lot of
12 times and --
13 Q. With papers in hand?
14 A. I don't recall too much times. It's like two,
15 three times, maybe four.
16 Q. All right. Were you -- you were aware that
17 Mr. Kartuzinski was Lisa McPherson's Senior Case Supervisor,
18 correct?
19 A. Yeah, I know. I know that.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Yeah, that's ...
22 Q. He doesn't do that anymore, right? Or do you
23 know?
24 A. Don't ask me, I have no idea.
25 Q. How long have you been out of the Church
19
1 staff-wise?
2 A. Since October.
3 Q. Okay. Almost a year.
4 So did you ever handle any reports that you did
5 not write that were written by other Security Officers?
6 A. Yeah. The reports, whoever -- basically, if I was
7 on the night and something happened, I ask them to write
8 reports on it so there is something I can give in the
9 morning to the CS.
10 Q. Right.
11 Now, my question is, were any of those reports in
12 reference to Lisa Mcpherson's status at the hotel?
13 A. Yeah. Yeah.
14 Q. They were, okay.
15 A. Yeah, this is what I'm talking about,
16 Lisa McPherson.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. So you were given reports by other security people
20 to deliver to Alain Kartuzinski?
21 A. What you mean, other security people, the
22 trainees?
23 Q. Well, whoever was watching Lisa Mcpherson.
24 A. Oh, I got it. Yeah, okay, yeah.
25 Q. You did?
20
1 A. Yeah, I was given papers, I was asking them to
2 write it.
3 Q. Okay. How many times would you say, just
4 guessing, I know it's been a long time, how many times would
5 you say that has occurred?
6 A. I don't -- three, five times.
7 Q. Three to five times?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. That you delivered reports?
10 A. Oh, no, not deliver, get reports into the office.
11 Q. That you got reports --
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. -- in the office?
14 A. Yeah. I'm not necessarily delivering these
15 reports. It's like basic route is this, we were the
16 communications center for these people to the CS. So if
17 they had anything to write up, I told them to write it up,
18 they bring it in, I just put it on the desk again. And we
19 turn over in the mornings, I tell the guy, see this report
20 should go to the CS. And then after that what's happens to
21 that paper, I don't really know.
22 Q. Okay. So you told several Security Officers or
23 more than one Security Officer to write a report and give --
24 submit it to your office?
25 A. I told, if something important happen, to the
21
1 outside and the inside -- see, if they have anything to
2 write up, write it up and give it to me and I make sure it's
3 gonna go to the CS. This is things like she was eating or
4 not.
5 Q. Right. That's what I'm asking. If she has a fit
6 or if she broke something --
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. -- or if she was trouble or whatever.
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. How about the caretakers' reports, where would
11 they go?
12 A. I was talking all of them. I was talking about
13 this. When you say security person, I believe you say
14 caretakers and security too.
15 Q. No, I don't refer to them as the same people.
16 A. Oh, I am sorry. For me they were the same.
17 Q. All right. Let's see if we can differentiate a
18 little bit.
19 So you're saying that many of the reports that the
20 caretakers and the security people would write would go into
21 the basket at the security office down in the garage?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Okay. Would the caretakers take them to the
24 garage and put them in that basket --
25 A. Yeah.
22
1 Q. -- themselves?
2 A. No, no, they give it to me. They cannot come into
3 the Security Office.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. So they would walk to the Security Office door,
6 knock on it, I open the door, get the papers, and then I put
7 it on the desk. And then when the guys come in, saying,
8 okay, here I am, I gonna replace you, then I tell them, this
9 and this happened and here is this report, has to go to the
10 CS. Does the same thing for -- for the caretakers.
11 Q. There were a lot of girls that were involved in
12 this, right? I mean, I can name some names, see if they
13 ring any bells.
14 Sylvia DelaVaga?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Rita Boykins?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Barbro Wennberg?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Heather Petzolo?
21 A.- Yeah.
22 Q. Susan Rike? Emma Schamehorn?
23 A. Susan Rike, I don't know. Emma Schamehorn I
24 remember.
25 Q. Joan Stevens?
23
1 A. She wasn't really on it when I was there, but I
2 remember.
3 Q. Patrizia Stralner?
4 A. Patrizia, yeah.
5 Q. Heidi Cesare?
6 A. Don't ring a bell.
7 Q. Anna Pedrazanni?
8 A. Don't ring a bell.
9 Q. Susan Green?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Valerie Demangie?
12 A. Yeah, Valerie, I remember her.
13 Q. But you're saying that those people would
14 typically leave their report outside or knock on the
15 Security Office door?
16 A. Yeah. If -- if they wrote it, they would bring it
17 to me, because this was the fastest way to get to the CS.
18 Q. Were you aware of a basket that might have been in
19 the Com route that was located outside of Lisa McPherson's
20 room in a laundry room or --
21 MR. McGARRY: What room was that?
22 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: Housekeeping.
23 Q. -- housekeeping room the reports might have gone
24 to?
25 A. Not -- not personal, no, I don't remember.
24
1 Q. You're not aware of that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Would reports --
4 A. That basically is possible, because the Church set
5 up that way; that almost everywhere you have a Com basket
6 like that.
7 Q. I understand.
8 A. That possible, but I particularly didn't see that
9 Com basket myself.
10 Q. Do you ever remember Lacy Spencer being a
11 Com Runner during that period of time?
12 Did you know Lacy Spencer? She worked for
13 Alain Kartuzinski.
14 A. I don't even know who is she.
15 Q. Okay. After Lisa died, were you asked to attend
16 any meetings that were had in reference to her death,
17 possibly because she had an infectious disease or a
18 debriefing in reference to the circumstances --
19 A. No.
20 Q. -- surrounding her death?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Were you ever a part or ever involved in a
23 Committee of Evidence or an Internal Investigation as to the
24 circumstances surrounding Lisa McPherson's death?
25 A. No.
25
3. Q. Were you ever questioned by any of your Seniors or
2 your supervisors in reference to the circumstances
3 surrounding Lisa's death?
4 A. No, not -- just while it was happening, what's
5 happened last night. If you mean this way, afterwards, I
6 didn't had any questioning or anything. I don't remember
7 any.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. Basically, I was pretty much out of the way
10 because I was working the nights and sleeping the daytime,
11 so -- and other things usually happen in the daytime, I
12 wasn't around.
13 Q. She had some pretty sleepness nights?
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. She had some pretty sleepness nights?
16 A. Yeah, I know that. In the beginning mostly. On
17 the beginning she had sleepless nights, that's for sure.
18 Q. Okay. Were you aware that there was going to be a
19 procedure that was going to be run on Lisa McPherson after
20 they got her calmed down through the watch?
21 A. Yeah. This was the whole purpose, to get her calm
22 down and then help her so she gets better.
23 Q. And what was that procedure that was going to be
24 run?
25 A. That's very high. I have no idea.
26
1 Q. "Very high," as in high in knowledge level?
2 A. No, that's spiritual counsel. Which I am on the
3 lower level still.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. And this is like a different thing. This is why
6 the Senior CS did that thing.
7 Q. Okay. What folder, if you know, would those files
8 or those notes about Lisa McPherson's behavior or her
9 conduct or her circumstances, what folder would those go to
10 after it left the Senior CS, if you know?
11 A. Per the procedure, it would be the PC folder.
12 Otherwise, it's depends on the CS, if he decides what -- I
13 don't know. That's completely on the CS.
14 Q. Okay. Are you aware of how the -- those documents
15 would arrive or get to her PC folder after the Senior CS
16 reviewed them?
17 A. He puts in, I think.
18 Q. He does?
19 A. Well, he has a -- this is the -- the thing is
20 this, the CS gets the folder and then he reads the folder,
21 and then this is how he decides what -- what needs to be
22 done. So all this papers goes into the folder. And I
23 assume, he has the folder in his hand, he would put it in
24 right away.
25 Q. Okay.
27
1 A. It depends. If this paper wasn't important for a
2 case, like maybe there was something she -- she didn't eat
3 or whatever, maybe is just wasn't important, then he would
4 maybe destroy it, I'm not sure. Is like either way, it goes
5 into a folder or is get destroyed. Nothing goes to the
6 trash.
7 Q. Nothing gets destroyed?
8 A. No. - Either way, is destroyed or goes to the
9 folder. But just simple, like nothing goes to the trash, it
10 goes into shredder machine, so ...
11 Q. Did you ever see anybody put any of
12 Lisa McPherson's file in a shredder machine?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you ever hear anybody discuss --
15 A. No.
16 Q. -- that that was done?
17 A. No way.
18 Q. Can you imagine that that would be done?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Not with those documents, correct?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. No.
24 Q. Are you aware that -- that there are documents
25 that people have indicated that they have written that are
28
1 not -- have not been found? Are you aware of that?
2 A. I -- I didn't know --
3 MR. DARKEN: Independent of what we've talked
4 about.
5 A. Yeah, I didn't know, I just heard about it.
6 Q. Okay. Have you ever had a conversation in
7 reference to the whereabouts of some of those documents with
8 an individual named Glen Steilo?
9 Do you know who Glen Steilo is?
10 A. No idea. Who is that?
11 Q. He's a representative from your organization.
12 A. Basically, I am not -- not -- not very active in
13 the last, because of my circumstances.
14 Q. I understand. He's new. He's new.
15 A. And, yeah, he's new, so I have no idea who is
16 that.
17 Q. He's from the West Coast.
18 Were you -- what time was your -- did your shift
19 usually begin for the night shift?
20 A. Is always different. Sometimes 6:00 or 7:00 in
21 the -- in the evening, or sometime I come in 10:00 p.m.,
22 sometime 11:00 p.m.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. Is depends on how much time was spending in the
25 morning staying.
29
1 Q. Okay. Well, December 5th Lisa died, and she was
2 transported from the Cabana to New Port Richey, a hospital
3 in New Port Richey anywhere between 6:30 and eight o'clock,
4 depending on who you talk to; presumably around 7:00, 7:30.
5 Were you on duty that day?
6 A. I think l was.
7 Q. You were.
8 Do you remember her being transported from the
9 Cabana area to a van?,
10 A. I -- I didn't see that thing. I wasn't out there
11 whatsoever, I was in the Security Office.
12 Q. Were there other Security Guards on duty that day?
13 A. The day shift still on till midnight, so...
14 Q. Who is the Security Guard that was on duty that
15 day?
16 A. I'm not requiring contact person, but I think was
17 Arthur Baxter.
18 Q. Would it be normal procedure for a Security Guard
19 to help in a situation like this, where she had to be helped
20 to a car and transported to New Port Richey?
21 A. Not necessarily. It's not Security job --
22 Q. I understand.
23 A. -- to transport somebody to the hospital.
24 Q. But you're aware that the majority of the time
25 there was a Security Guard that was outside Lisa McPherson's
30
1 door?
2 A. Yeah. Yeah, I know that.
3 Q. Did you ever see Lisa McPherson come out of that
4 door?
5 A. (Witness shakes head negatively.)
6 Q. Ever?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Onetime?
9 A. No.
10 Q. In the whole 17 days she was there?
11 A. No, I didn't see her coming out.
12 Q. Did you ever see her have a visitor other than a
13 member of Staff that was helping out with her feeding and
14 her comfort?
15 A. No, not -- not on my duty. But I was in the
16 night, so ...
17 Q. Well, I'm asking you about your shift.
18 So you did not play a role or assist in the
19 removal of Lisa McPherson from the Cabana area of the hotel
20 to the van in which she took a ride to New Port Richey?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Y'all have radios, right, to keep in communication
23 with each other?
24 A. Yeah.
25 MR. McGARRY: All right. That's all the
31
1 questions I have, but the Detectives might have some
2 questions in areas that I neglected to cover. So if
3 you want to stand by, we can finish up. If you need a
4 break, we'll be happy to take a break.
5 THE WITNESS: That's okay, thanks.
6 MR. McGARRY: Let's take a break.
7 (Short recess is held.)
8 EXAMINATION
9 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
10 Q. Okay. Attila, now, in 1995, in November, you were
11 a -- I want to say a full-fledged Security Guard at that
12 time, meaning that you --
13 A. "Full-fledged" means?
14 Q. -- were a regular Security Guard, that was your
15 regular job?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. All right. Sam Ghiora, he was working at Lisa's
18 door most of the time. We've talked to him.
19 Now, he was a trainee?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Now, was he answering to you? Would you have been
22 his Senior, so that you --
23 A. In the nights, yes.
24 Q. Okay. Now, so you were trying to teach him how to
25 be a Security Guard?
32
1 A. No, not at all, because he was sitting there doing
2 watch. If he has any questions, I would answer what he
3 want, but there was no time and that I don't have the
4 conduct to teach him whatsoever.
5 Q. Okay. Now, that's where I'm going, is that, when
6 we talked to Sam, he says that he had asked you what he was
7 supposed to do --
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. -- and you told him that he had to write
10 reports
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. -- on the specific incidents.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Now, he also indicates that -- that he wrote at
15 least three reports.
16 A. It's possible, I don't remember.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. I -- I definitely asked everybody whenever I could
19 to write reports so we have something in writing what's
20 happening to the CS -- so the CS can evaluate the thing and
21 do his job.
22 Q. All right. Now, he says he wrote three reports.
23 And then he also indicates he gave you those reports:
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. Now, we're missing those reports.
33
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Do you remember any reports that Sam would have
3 given you?
4 A. That's possible. I don't remember any reports
5 particularly getting from him, but I told you already I got
6 reports in. And this is the place where this would come, to
7 me.
8 Q. Okay. So you would take them to the
9 Security Office and they would go to the Senior CS?
10 A. No, they would take it to the Security Office, to
11 me, give it to me. And then I would, what I tell you, put
12 it on the table and then when the next watch coming, I tell
13 them this and blah and blah happened in the night, and here
14 is this paper, needs to go up to the CS.
15 Q. Okay. So Sam would not have given you these
16 reports out at Lisa's room, he would bring these to the
17 Security Office and then give them to you?
18 A. He just couldn't even do it because he wasn't
19 inside, he was always outside and he cannot walk away from
20 there. So whenever his watch is finish, he may comes in and
21 writes it, and then gives it to me. If he did write it in
22 the night, then whenever his watch is finish, he brings it
23 into the Security Office.
24 Q. Okay. These reports that were written, the
25 ones -- the copies that we have there, they're handwritten
34
1 reports.
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Are they usually or ever written with carbon
4 paper?
5 Do you know what carbon paper is?
6 A. Yeah, I know.
7 I don't think so.
8 Q. Okay. So when you did your reports, they weren't
9 with carbon paper, they were just regular reports, and if
10 you needed copies of them, somebody made copies on the copy
11 machine?
12 A. Yeah, that's possible.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Yeah, not because -- because they don't even have
15 access to carbon paper over there, so ...
16 Q. All right. This Security Office downstairs by the
17 garage --
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. -- is there always a Security Officer in it?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Okay. So there's always somebody inside that
22 Security Office?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Like there's always someone at our police
25 department's front desk.
35
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. Okay. Is there a place at that Security Office --
3 and I think you just said he would come in and write his
4 report?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Is there an office or something?
7 A. Yeah. Is like a Security Office and then a small
8 back office. He could sit down there and write it or he
9 could sit down outside and write it. "Outside" means in the
10 booth itself.
11 Q. Okay. And there is another little office there
12 that -- that he could sit down and write it at, or not?
13 A. In the booth there's a little back part where he
14 can sit down, there is a table, and he can write report.
15 Q. All right. How many chairs are at that table?
16 Could three people sit there and write?
17 A. Sometimes zero, sometimes one, sometimes three.
18 Depends how many chairs inside just that moment --
19 Q. All right.
20 A. -- or how many person right there inside at that
21 moment.
22 Q. Would it be possible for three people to sit there
23 and write reports at one time?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Okay.
36
1 A. This would be very -- this would be very tight
2 though.
3 Q. Very tight?
4 A. Very tight!.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you were on duty -- you've already
6 said you were on duty on the night of December 5th, 1995,
7 when Lisa died, but you were inside the --
8 A. Security Office.
9 Q. -- Security Office.
10 How -- did you spend the whole night inside the
11 Security Office? Would that be normal?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Okay. Now, on that night, later in the evening,
14 did some people come to the Security Office to write
15 reports?
16 A. Don't remember. It possible, but I have no idea.
17 Q. We have some people that testified that they,
18 after coming back from the hospital and dropping Lisa off,
19 that they were taken to the Security Office by the garage
20 and asked to write reports.
21 A. That's completely possible, I -- but I don't
22 remember.
23 Q. Okay. So that -- that would be very normal
24 routine?
25 A. Yeah, normal routine.
37
1 Q. Okay. You're not sure whether you wrote reports
2 or not and specifically --
3 A. No, I don't.
4 Q. -- in relation to Lisa?
5 A. No, I'm not.
6 Q. But you, as Security, normally wrote reports?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. I mean -- I mean, see, if something important
10 happens, I would put it in the computer. Or if it's need to
11 go up to the CS and it's so important, then I would write
12 the paper and send it up to the CS.
13 But the point is, in this case, this guys wrote
14 reports anyway, and I ask them to write the report, and it
15 wasn't necessary for me to just repeat what they already
16 said in their reports, so ...
17 Q. Now, my question is going to be, when you wrote
18 your reports as normal fashion --
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. -- and I write reports, when you wrote them, did
21 you sign them, Attila Toth, Security?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. So if we were to have any copies of your reports,
24 they would say Security, Attila Toth, or how did you sign
25 them?
38
1 A. Yeah, Attila Toth, Security Officer, or Second
2 Night Watch Chief.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. I can give you form how the reports written so,
5 you know, if you want --
6 Q. I have no reports with Attila Toth on them, so
7 that kind of answers the question. We don't have --
8 A. That should be two times there. My name should be
9 every time two times on the report, once up on the top and
10 once on the bottom when I sign it.
11 Q. Now, Arthur Baxter was the Security Chief at that
12 time, we know that, he testified to that.
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Did he give you any instructions -- you just
15 referred to yourself as Second Watch Chief.
16 A. No, Night Watch Chief.
17 Q. Night Watch Chief.
18 Were you the boss then, other than Arthur Baxter?
19 A. No. When Arthur Baxter is, he is my boss. He was
20 Security Chief. But when nobody around, I am the boss.
21 This means midnight they leave, from midnight up until 6:00
22 I am the Security Chief in charge or whatever you would say.
23 Q. So a lot of nights when you were working, you were
24 the Security Chief. When I ask you --
25 A. Yeah, Security Chief, yeah.
39
1 Q. What I'm trying to get to is, did Arthur Baxter
2 give you specific instructions in reference to
3 Lisa McPherson's stay at the Cabana?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. Did he give you any instructions?
6 A. If he -- I didn't really get instructions. See,
7 the point is, I was pretty much in Security already, I did
8 know -- I did most of procedures. And they -- I didn't --
9 Q. So you knew the procedures?
10 A. Yeah. I don't really need too much orders around
11 to do my job.
12 Q. All right. Since you know the procedures, Lisa
13 was there on an isolation?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. She was there for an isolation watch to get calmed
16 down?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. I think you said that already.
19 A. Yeah, that's correct.
20 Q. And then some type of rundown later on, and I know
21 you said it was high up.
22 Your instructions would be, and I would like you
23 to answer these, if Lisa wanted to leave the room?
24 A. I didn't get any instructions, but on my own, I
25 did know I don't want her running around naked, screaming on
40
1 the street, so I don't want her leave the room. And I --
2 basically, this is why she had this watch, so she don't hurt
3 herself, she don't start to run around naked, screaming.
4 Q. What if she was dressed and calm and said, I want
5 to go home?
6 A. She could go.
7 Q. Okay. So you, as the Night Security Chief, would
8 then let her go home?
9 A. Yeah. But the -- basically, this is just all
10 speculation, I have no idea what would happen. Right now, I
11 think I would let her go home if she's completely calm and
12 she says, okay, I am fine right now and I would like to go
13 home; That is -- she wasn't restrained. She wasn't -- I'm
14 sorry if I use wrong English words.
15 Q. No, that's a good word.
16 A. But she wasn't like physically stopped, except we
17 were trying to keep her calm and make sure she's not running
18 around naked. This -- basically, this is what happens the
19 first place, that she --
20 Q. I'm just a little shocked at that, because we've
21 had previous testimony that said the Senior Case Supervisor,
22 Alain Kartuzinski and/or maybe Mr. Baxter or Mr. Kellerhaus
23 may have had the authority to let her go, but nobody else,
24 and I'm a little surprised that you would have the authority
25 to let her go.
41
1 A. I am sure -- no, I am sure I would make a phone
2 call first to my Senior.
3 Q. Okay. You would get permission from somebody?
4 A. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
5 Q. Okay. That's why I was a little shocked, I
6 thought you would make this decision on your own.
7 A. No, there are procedures. But I didn't have the
8 authority to restrain her completely, see what I mean. I
9 didn't have the authority to stop her physically if she
10 completely well and, she want to go and she said. I'm sure I
11 have to call around for someone right away. That would the
12 Security Chief I'm calling.
13 Q. All right.
14 A. Basically -- basically, in the Church there is a
15 communication set up that anything big happens, I always
16 have my communications lines and I have the authority to
17 wake up anybody who is sleeping and who is Senior to me.
18 Q. Like a chain of command?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Keep going up the chain of command?
21 A. Yeah. Something bad happens, I have to call them
22 and tell them.
23 Q. Okay. I understand.
24 Who were the other Security Guards working with
25 you? How about that night, December 5th night, do you
42
1 remember?
2 A. Barcenas.
3 Q. Okay. Now, there has been previous testimony
4 there were numerous Security Guards, there were two that
5 came to Lisa's room the night, okay, when she was carried
6 out to the van. And the testimony to that is that they
7 don't know who they were, but they were Hungarian or Slavic
8 or something.
9 A. See, the point is this, I don't -- I didn't even
10 know this was a van. I believe they took her in a car. So
11 I don't know anything about what's happened in the back.
12 Q. Okay. Let me correct that, the van was a car. It
13 was a private car --
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. -- belonging to Janice Johnson, it just happened
16 to be one of those little mini vans, that's why I use "van."
17 A. Yeah. I didn't even know that, I'm sorry.
18 Q. Okay. Now, and who would have been the two
19 Hungarian Security Guards there helping Paul Greenwood and
20 Janice Johnson and Laura Arrunada taking her from the room?
21 You were there that evening and you were the --
22 A. I wasn't in charge. See, you need to understand.
23 From 6:00 to midnight, even if I am in, I am not in charge.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. Because the other -- the day shift is still there
43
1 in.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. My in charge starts like midnight when they leave
4 and from that moment I am alone. And this whole cycle, it
5 was before. So -- so I was there in the night, but I don't
6 even remember what I did. I was around checking buildings,
7 going outside, sitting in the office watching monitors, but
8 I wasn't involved with Lisa.
9 Q. Okay. Then tell me the other Hungarian
10 Security Guards who were working with you at that time.
11 A. Yeah, there were -- like on my security or just
12 for the day?
13 Q. Any of them, any of them that you remember, any of
14 the names that you remember working there.
15 A. Yeah, remember names. One of them is
16 Sandor Bogdan.
17 Q. Hold on a minute. You're going to have to help us
18 here.
19 A. Okay. Sandor Bogdan -- can I have a piece of
20 paper, I write it out so she can help it easier. `
21 Q. Sure.
22 A. I remember Hungarians working with me in the Fort,
23 one of them was -- this is not necessary means that -- that
24 they were there, I just remember they were working.
25 Q. Fine. The only reason I'm asking you is you're
44
1 Hungarian, so you would have more of a connection to
2 remember.
3 A. Yeah, those are there.
4 MR. DARKEN: Let me just copy this.
5 Q. Is Sandor a common name in Hungarian?
6 A. It's a very common name. It's a very common name.
7 MR. DARKEN: Do you want to read that for the
8 record or not?
9 MR. McGARRY: Well, I'll let him do it.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay.
11 MR. McGARRY: Who are those people?
12 THE WITNESS: So the three Hungarian
13 Security Guard I was working with is Sandor Bogdan,
14 S-a-n-d-o-r, B-o-g-d-a-n, and then Sandor Barna, who
15 is -- the last name is B-a-r-n-a, Barna, and then
16 Istvan Melmeczy, who is I-s-t-v-a-n, M-e-l-m-e-c-z-y.
17 MR. McGARRY: Let me follow-up a question or
18 two, Wayne.
19 Are any of those individuals around right
20 now? When is the last time you've seen any of those
21 three?
22 THE WITNESS: I didn't see anybody since
23 October.
24 MR. McGARRY: Okay. And in October, did you
25 see those three guys?
45
1 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
2 MR.McGARRY: They're still there?
3 THE WITNESS: They were there in October.
4 didn't see them since.
5 MR. McGARRY: Okay. Thank you.
6 Go ahead, Wayne.
7 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: All right.
8 MR. McGARRY: Sorry for the interruption.
9 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: That's okay.
10 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS:
11 Q. Now, let's go back to this computer, Security
12 computer.
13 Were you pretty familiar with that Security
14 computer, being in charge from 6:00 -- excuse me, from
15 midnight till 6:00 in the morning? You were pretty
16 familiar?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Was there a normal format in the computer that you
19 would normally type in a report?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. What did that look like? Was it a report form,
22 pre-made up?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. And did it have a time and place?
25 A. Yeah, everything.
46
1 Q. And you filled in the -- did you fill in like a
2 box?
3 A. I filled in blocks, like, you know, anywhere --
4 like if you go to stop and fill in like date, the curser
5 would jump to the next, fill it out, and jump to the next
6 and then come to place that I type in stuff.
7 Q. Like a narrative you could type?
8 A. Yeah. Like then type it in, in the computer.
9 Q. The Church has said the computer was blown --
10 A. I remember, because I was pretty much in charge of
11 the computer, too, because before there was nobody. And I
12 recall times when the computer was completely blown and I
13 had to, like --
14 Q. Start over?
15 A. -- start over the whole thing.
16 So they had -- they had pretty bad problems
17 before. They didn't know their computer whatsoever until I
18 came, so they had problems. And basically, all this
19 problems happened after, because most -- like I was there in
20 Security for, like three, three and a half years and I had to
21 fix computers after like the two, two and a half -- last
22 two, one and a half year most of the time.
23 Q. All right. Now, I think I only have a couple of
24 questions I just want to clear up. And I don't want to
25 sound like I'm nit-picking, if you know what that means --
47
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. Nit-picking is getting very specific.
3 -- but I have to get this question answered
4 correctly.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. In order for you to allow Lisa McPherson, as a
7 Security Chief between 12:00 and 6:00 in the morning, to
8 leave the Fort Harrison Hotel during her watch, her
9 isolation watch, you would get the permission of someone
10 else? `
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Who would that be?
13 A. Security Chief.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. But I'm sure he would call higher up to like his
16 Senior.
17 Q. You think that he'd have to follow the chain of
18 command too?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Where would that stop, in your knowledge?
21 A. With PK, Senior INR.
22 Q. With Paul Kellerhaus, PK?
23 A. Yeah, Paul Kellerhaus. But this is all
24 speculation, I have no idea. That's like never happened.
25 Like in this case, I have idea what would happen, but it's
48
1 just all speculation.
2 Q. Are you familiar with a Case Supervisor, the
3 difference between Case Supervisor and
4 Senior Case Supervisor?
5 A. The Senior, would be the Senior of the area. He
6 would do the harder cases, plus he would check on the other
7 supervisors, what they do.
8 Q. Okay. In this case we've had -- we have the
9 Senior Case Supervisor --
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. -- doing the auditing for Lisa McPherson, who was
12 public, she was a public member. Maybe you don't know that
13 she was a public, member.
14 A. I don't -- she was a public, but I don't think
15 this is correct, he wasn't doing the auditing. He wasn't,
16 he was SC.
17 Q. We never got to the auditing.
18 A. No, but he was CS. Basically, there is a
19 different thing. CSs and auditing is two different things.
20 Q. Okay. What I'm getting at, it seems to me, after
21 listening to everyone talk, that it was kind of funny that
22 the Senior Case Supervisor at Flag, which is a pretty
23 prestigious position, okay, would be doing the CS work for
24 Lisa McPherson, or would that be normal?
25 A. No, that would be normal. Because she was special
49
1 case. If she becomes a special case, she gets the most
2 special attention, obviously.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. There are like -- like this is not -- not like
5 that way, there are like three or four Senior CS5 for the
6 three or four different area.
7 Q. Yeah, well, Kartuzinski would have been the only
8 Senior CS for Flag, right? There wouldn't have been a --
9 A. For public?
10 Q. For public.
11 A. No, there are a Senior CS for Staff too.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. And then there are Senior CS for public in the
14 Fort Harrison, if I'm recall correctly, and I think there
15 are Senior CS over in the Sand Castle, but this is just --
16 Q. Speculation?
17 A. Not really speculation, this is what I recall.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. All right.
20 Q. What -- what made Lisa's case special?
21 A. Basically, that she went violent, I think. But
22 this is -- I don't -- I'm not familiar with the -- the
23 counsel side of this thing. Basically, on the Security, I
24 can tell you the Security side, she was very special for us
25 because she went violent. And basically, she -- she --
50
1 there was a possibility she starts up again running around
2 naked on the streets, screaming, which was the first time
3 the case.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. All right. So this was the Security side.
6 Whatever is the counsel side belongs to the CS, I don't have
7 any knowledge. I
8 Q. Okay. Have you been involved in any -- any other
9 of these kind of cases, special cases like Lisa, with a
10 watch and being isolated, isolation watch? Have you been
11 involved with any other cases like with other people in
12 isolation watches?
13 A. No, not I -- not what I recall.
14 Q. Okay. Do you recall when Security, and I mean
15 Security in this case of Sam Ghiora and Alfonso Barcenas,
16 when they were pulled off of Lisa's room?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Do you ever remember checking on them?
19 Because I get the impression that somebody in Security was
20 checking on them too.
21 A. Yeah, but I wasn't able to go out to check on
22 them.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. That's one. The other thing is, I was usually
25 just there in the nights, and what's happening in the
51
1 daytime is not really coming through to me.
2 Q. Okay.
3 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I don't have
4 anything further.
5 George, do you have anything?
6 DETECTIVE CARPASQUILLO: I have a couple.
7 EXAMINATION
8 BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO:
9 Q. Were you ever trained to handle an
10 Introspection Rundown as part of your Security training?
11 A. No. That's way high up too. Basically --
12 basically, that rundown, it requires, I think, Class V
13 Auditor, and I'm not even a Class Auditor yet. I'm not even
14 0 Dianetics Auditor.
15 Q. As part of your Security training, were you ever
16 trained to handle an isolation watch?
17 A. No. That is completely -- nobody knew anything
18 about it, per my knowledge, except Senior INR, and he is the
19 one that would tell us how it was done in his past somewhere
20 else, if we had any.
21 Q. Who are we talking about? A name, please.
22 A. Senior INR, that's Paul Kellerhaus.
23 Q. You said that you were the only one working from
24 midnight to 6:00 in the morning?
25 A. From midnight to like -- they come in usually
52
1 9:00, ten o'clock.
2 Q. Okay. Who was relieving either Sam or Alfonso for
3 lunch, for the lunch break? Was that you?
4 A. No, I wasn't around that time. I go home to sleep
5 around 10:00, 11:00.
6 Q. One of them, either Sam came in the morning and
7 worked ten hours, then was relieved by Alfonso, either way,
8 there was one there at night while you were working?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Okay. Who relieved him for lunch, the one that
11 was working at night?
12 A. In the night?
13 Q. In the night.
14 A. In the night they don't be relieved, they stay
15 there.
16 Q. For the whole watch?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. So they were never relieved for the watch?
19 A. No. In the night there is no way. I'm sitting in
20 Security Office alone, I can't go and relieve them and they
21 are out there.
22 Q. You said you relieved one of them at one time.
23 A. This was in the daytime, like after somebody came
24 in. Like Security Chief and the other guards in already,
25 and this guy needs to get breakfast, you know, if it's like
53
1 10:00 a.m. or -- or 11:00 a.m. or something, and I go there,
2 relieve them like for 15, 20 minutes. He goes, gets a
3 breakfast, very fast, eat something in the Cantina and comes
4 back.
5 Q. So that time you relieved, I think you said it was
6 Sam --
7 A. Yeah, I think Sam I relieved.
8 Q. -- that was during the day?
9 A. It's possible that I relieve Sam once.
10 Q. You said you did.
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. That's when she broke the stuff and you went in
13 and helped remove some of the things that could be broken?
14 A. Oh, no. This was a completely different case.
15 That was not relief, no.
16 When -- when she started to do the mess inside her
17 room, then someone was still outside. I just went into the
18 back, helping taking things out. But this was in the
19 daytime and there were already other Security Guards in --
20 in the Security booth, otherwise I can't leave the booth
21 myself.
22 Q. So you -- somebody called you and told you to come
23 to the back?
24 A. I don't know. I think I just went back to check
25 what's going on and then we find out we need to take the
54
1 stuff out and I help.
2 Q. Okay. You also said earlier that you told Sam and
3 Alfonso that if anything was broken or anything happened, to
4 write a report?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. That was part of their job?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How come -- then following those instructions,
9 because something was broken and something special happened,
10 you should have written a report?
11 A. No. Because this is the thing, he already wrote
12 the report. Why should I write it up a second time, he
13 already wrote something.
14 Q. I understand.
15 There were caretakers in the room with her all the
16 time?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. But you told Sam and Alfonso, if anything was
19 broken -- something was broken, to write a report regardless
20 whether the caretakers wrote a report?
21 A. This is the thing --
22 MR. DARKEN: He testified about Sam, telling
23 Sam to write a report, I don't think he talked about
24 telling Alfonso to write a report.
25 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: No, he said --
55
1 A. I tell everybody write a report. The point was
2 this, I was in the Security booth, I didn't see anything.
3 Now, this guy, if somebody inside sees the something, maybe
4 the outside ones see something else. From the two reports I
5 get the whole picture. But if I got -- the whole picture
6 already is there, I don't need write another report based on
7 their reports. Makes no sense. This would be a secondhand
8 thing.
9 Q. I'm just trying to clear this up.
10 You said the orders were, if something was
11 broken --
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. -- something special happens, you write a report.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Well, you were there when those two things
16 occurred, something was broken and something special was
17 going on.
18 A. No, when I was -- no, no, that's not -- when I was
19 there, it wasn't broke anything, we just take out everything
20 to make sure she won't do that. Wasn't because she broke
21 something. How you call this in English, precaution?
22 Q. Precautionary.
23 A. Yeah, precautionary. So she won't hurt herself on
24 the mirror, we take out the mirror. There was nothing
25 broken.
56
1 Q. Somebody ordered you to do that, to go down and
2 remove all that stuff?
3 A. Yeah. That was also, I think, Senior INR,
4 Paul Kellerhaus. Basically, he was the one who knew the
5 most and -- and he was the most experienced guy around.
6 Q. Okay. I want to talk about your Security office
7 where you sit in the garage. You said you have monitors
8 there?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Okay. From your -- are those monitors recorded?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you have videotapes running?
13 A. I don't know how they do it now. At the time they
14 were not.
15 Q. Okay. So it was just a monitor, but there was no
16 video running?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. From your position in that monitor room,
19 could you see the Cabanas?
20 A. I can see the walkway.
21 Q. Okay. Could you see Lisa's room from your
22 monitors?
23 A. I can't see the door.
24 Q. You can see the door?
25 A. I cannot see the door.
57
1 Q. Okay. Can you --
2 A. It's -- it's like basically the -- can I have the
3 piece of paper again with a pen?
4 This place looks like, this is the Cabana, here
5 are the doors. Here is one camera in this corner watching
6 this way, and here is this camera Around this corner
7 watching this way. So basically, whatever happens with the
8 door, I cannot see, and I can't see this area where the
9 Guard was sitting. Basically, from this camera I can see
10 this area, but this is so far away, basically, you can't see
11 anything in the night.
12 Q. This is the street out here?
13 A. Yeah, this is the street. We have big gate here,
14 big gate here.
15 Q. This is a high fence wall?
16 A. Not very high. Not very high. If I stand by,
17 it's about this high.
18 Q. Six feet? Five feet?
19 A. Six feet maybe.
20 Q. You said the night that Lisa was taken to the
21 hospital you were in your Security room?
22 A. No, I didn't say that. I said I was partly there
23 and I was partly outside. And if I am in the booth, not
24 necessary means I'm watching the monitors, because the
25 Security Chief there. Like, see, if the Security Chief is,
58
1 in, usually he sits. and watch the monitors and we are like
2 running around, going check the buildings and maybe staying
3 inside, because picking up the phone, whatever.
4 Q. Okay. Who would have been in the booth between,
5 let's say, eight o'clock and -- let's go 7:00 to 9:00
6 o'clock, who would have been there?
7 A. Arthur Baxter would be there anyway, I think.
8 Q. Arthur Baxter would have been there.
9 And would he have been monitoring the monitors?
10 A. Yeah, he would.
11 Q. Okay. And that's part of his responsibility, sit
12 in that booth and monitor the monitors?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. So --
15 A. If he may have something to handle, then he jumps
16 out from the chair, I sit in and --
17 Q. But there's always somebody watching the monitors?
18 A. Somebody always watching the monitors.
19 Q. All right. So somebody sitting there should
20 have seen Lisa come out into this range of vision, into the
21 van and go to the hospital, somebody should have seen that?
22 A. It's possible. But other time -- the perfect
23 information is this: The cameras were very -- how you say?
24 Show everything is very small so he can see bigger area.
25 And that was in the night. And in the night, those cameras,
59
1 you can't always most -- you cannot see almost anything,
2 just movements. This is why it's there, so I can see if
3 somebody jumps in, there is like a huge movement and a big
4 difference in the chord, but I wouldn't recognize who is
5 there.
6 Q. Okay. But you would have seen at least four
7 people which is a lot -- good size mass --
8 A. Yeah. Yeah.
9 Q. -- moving --
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. -- across here?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. And somebody should have seen that?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Somebody should have seen Lisa walk out of the
16 room or be helped out of the room or carried out of the
17 room --
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. -- to the van --
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. -- that was parked in the street?
22 Did you see that?
23 A. No, I don't recall whatsoever.
24 Q. And the only other person that would have been in
25 the booth at the time was Arthur Baxter?
60
1 A. Arthur Baxter would be there and -- and whoever
2 works in the daytime.
3 Q. Do you know who that would have been?
4 No. I am sorry. This was so far back, and there
5 was so many changings back and forth between the Security
6 person, I don't know who was working on that day. I know I
7 was and I remember Arthur Baxter being there.
8 Q. Okay. And to best of your recollection, you don't
9 believe that those monitors were recorded at the time?
10 A. No. I don't even think they record it now, no,
11 not those two.
12 Q. Well, I -- I do know they record, and it might
13 have been recorded because we got a picture from a bomb
14 threat by someone riding a bicycle.
15 A. From the back?
16 Q. From your security cameras at the Fort Harrison.
17 A. From the back?
18 DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: We don't know
19 where it's from.
20 A. No, if there was recording, there was only one
21 recording when I was there, and that is the front door.
22 Which is, if this is the Cabanas, all right, and this is --
23 this is the Osceola Street, this is the Fort Harrison
24 Street, and the Fort Harrison main door.
25 Q. That's all that's recorded?
61
1 A. That's where the doorways is.
2 Q. The back is never recorded, to your knowledge?
3 A. Per my knowledge, not.
4 See, I wasn't there since October, so I don't know
5 what they record now, if they get new equipment. Other time
6 when I was working there, I had monitors and then I had one,
7 I think one video player. And I don't remember when that
8 was put in. And I recall recording the front door. I don't
9 even know -- it was so early at the time that the Security
10 was not as right now and we don't have that much equipment.
11 Q. You guys have been there since 1974.
12 A. Well, they were, but -- but that's not means that
13 I was there.
14 Q. I'm saying Security has been there since 1974.
15 And they have security cameras up. You would think that
16 from `74 to `95 they would have probably been recording by
17 then.
18 A. Yeah. Yeah, see, the point was that in the center
19 cell they recorded, they have to be there always, in the
20 Fort Harrison Hotel. There was a time earlier they recorded
21 and then the video recorder went -- broke. And then for
22 years there was no video recorder. And then when
23 Paul Kellerhaus came, he started pushing these issues very
24 hard. And after that we got the video recorder and started
25 to recording the front door. But this was only one machine
62
1 and that's it. And then I don't even think they would put
2 anything on the back recording.
3 Q. Okay. I just wanted to go on record, there might
4 be a possibility somewhere that there's a recording of Lisa
5 walking out that back door --
6 A. No.
7 Q. -- into the van?
8 A. I'm sure not.
9 Q. I want to put on record that somebody from
10 Security would have seen her walk out or a group of people
11 walk out.
12 A. That's possible.
13 Q. But we don't know who that somebody is yet?
14 A. No. But the thing is this, the main intention of
15 cameras was on the front door, because usually the big
16 trouble we got is from the front door.
17 Q. Okay. I've got one more question for you: You
18 say you did not have the authority to stop Lisa if she
19 wanted to leave. If she came out dressed and she was
20 looking okay, says I feel fine, I'm going to leave, you did
21 not have the authority to stop her, correct?
22 A. No.
23 Q. She could have just walked right down the
24 street -- walked out the door here, walked down the street
25 and walked on home, you could not stop her?
63
1 A. No.
2 MR. DARKEN: What he said was that he would
3 call the Security Chief.
4 A. Yeah, this is what I said.
5 Q. Well, you also said, and I think the words were
6 you did not have the authority, so if she insisted -- let me
7 ask you this: If she insisted on leaving now, I feel great,
8 I'm okay, I'm leaving now --
9 A. No, I don't have the authority to stop her.
10 Q. So she can walk out the door?
11 A. Per my knowledge.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Now, maybe -- maybe this would violate Security
14 procedures, but I don't recall any Security procedures about
15 this.
16 Q. Did Sam Ghiora have the authority to stop her?
17 A. No. Not what I know.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Basically, he was there to make sure she's not --
20 not beating, up the person who is inside.
21 Q. So if she's trying to walk out the room, to leave
22 the room, does Sam have the authority to stop her from
23 leaving the room?
24 A. I don't -- I don't think he would, but I am not
25 sure. This is -- this is -- this wasn't a very -- how I
64
1 say? How can I can put this? Nobody really knew what to
2 do, because we never had a case like that before. And
3 basically, I used all my knowledge of Security dealing with
4 the cycle and what -- this is all speculation. I don't
5 know, it never happened. So basically, I'm sure I would
6 call somebody.
7 Q. Well, it's interesting that, you know, you had
8 three years, you started in '93 in security, July, and this
9 occurred in November of '95, so little bit over two years
10 and you were not trained to handle some of the things that
11 we have mentioned here.
12 A. Yeah, because never happened.
13 Q. You never had one of these before?
14 A. No, because it's never happened before.
15 Q. So this was really a special case?
16 A. That was a very special case. For me anyway. And
17 also the point is that in this time period while you are
18 talking, I wasn't in Security always, I was out for a month
19 in -- and to doing something completely different.
20 DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: Well, I want to
21 thank you for answering our questions. I don't have
22 any more questions.
23 MR. McGARRY: All right. That will do it.
24 (WHEREUPON, THE TAKING OF THE SWORN STATEMENT WAS
25 CONCLUDED AT 10:30 A.M.)
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
65
1 CERTIFICATE OF OATH
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
4
5 I, the undersigned authority, certify that the
aforesaid deponent personally appeared before me and was
6 duly sworn.
WITNESS my hand and official seal this __21st__ day
of ___August___, 1997.
_____________________________________
10 RUTM M. MARTIN, R.M.R.
Notary Public - State of Florida
11 Commission No. CC 643284
Commission Expires: 4/29/2001
STATE OF FLORIDA )
14 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
15
I, RUTH M. MARTIN, Registered Merit Reporter,
16 certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
report the sworn statement of the aforenamed deponent, and
17 that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
stenographic notes.
18
I further certify that I am not a relative,
19 employee, attorney, or cotinsel of any of the parties, nor am
I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
20 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
interested in the action.
21
22 DATED this __21st__ day of ___August__, 1997.
________________________
25 RUTH M. MARTIN, RNR
KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320
