Interview with Alain Kartuzinski

Date:May 30, 1996


Today's date is 5/30/96. The time is 11:07 a.m. This is an interview with Alain Kartuzinski concerning the Lisa McPherson investigation. Present Lng the interview is myself (Det. Ron Sudler), Det. Carolyn Carrasquillo, attorney Bob Johnson, and Mr. Kartuzinski.

Det. Sudler: For the record Mr. Kartuzinski, can you state your name...spell it for me...and your date of birth and address?
Kartuzinski: So my name is Alain...A L A I N...Kartuzinski...K A R T U Z I N S K I., And I was born X, 1951, in X.
Det. Sudler: And your address now is....?
Kartuzinski: At the X.
Det. Sudler: Okay. And what is your position in the church now?
Kartuzinski: I am what is called a senior case provider.
Det. Sudler: Okay. You had an occasion to I guess meet Lisa McPherson or have some personal knowledge of Lisa McPherson. Is that correct,?
Kartuzinski: As much as many hundreds of other parishioners.
Det. Sudler: Okay. But you know Lisa McPherson personally? If you saw her you would know her?
Kartuzinski: As much much as many hundreds of people.
Det. Sudler: Okay. you recall an incident that occurred back in the latter part of November 95 into December of 95 involving Lisa Mcpherson?
Kartuzinski: Yes, I do.
Det. Sudler: Okay. were a senior case supervisor. Were you assignedt o LisaMcPherson?
Kartuzinski: No. I possibly should explain what my job is.
Det. Sudler: Okay..
Kartuzinski: It consists of supervising case supervisors.
Det. Sudler: Okay.

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Kartuzinski: Meaning they supervise ministers, which we call auditors. And these ministers perform special counseling with parishioners. And so..and my job consists of making sure that the case supervisors do what is standard procedures in directing the spiritual counseling.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Airight. Do you recall who Lisa's spiritual counselor was or her...who her auditor was?
Kartuzinski: No. There...1 have to give you a bit of an idea i think of how many people we deal with. Each...each minister has between four and ten parishioners at any given time and each case supervisor has between ten and twenty ministers. If you multiply those numbers, you have a very good idea of what happens.
Det. Sudler: Okay. So you don't necessarily know who a particular case supervisor has under them?
Kartuzinski: Exactly.
Det. Sudler: You''re more concerned with these supervisors themselves?
Kartuzinski: Exactly.
Det. Sudler: Okay. How did did you become involved with Lisa McPherson at that period of the. end of November?
Kartuzinski: Well, I was informed of the fact that a parishioner, Lisa McPherson, had had some sort of accident and was at the hospital.
Det. Sudler: Who informed you, of that?
Kartuzinski: Someone from the security office.
Det. Sudler: Okay. You don't remember who?
Kartuzinski: I don't recall who that was.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Were you on post at that time?
Kartuzinski: Oh yes.
Det. Sudler: Okay. And that was at 210 S. Ft. Harrison?

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Kartuzinski: Yes.
Det. Sudler: Were you informed by a. .a page or a phone call or in person?
Kartuzinski: I think it was a phone call.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Do you have an office over there?
Kartuzinski: Yes.
Det. Sudler: Okay. And they informed you that she was involved in an accident?
Kartuzinski: Right.
Det. Sudler: And at the hospital?
Kartuzinski: Right.
Det. Sudler: Okay. What happened after that?
Kartuzinski: So I looked to see if I could send some minister there... someone that could go there right away to give any assistance needed. And I couldn't find anyone immediately. So I decided I would go myself. So I took my car and went to the hospital.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm.. does that usually occur if a parishioner is involved in an accident...that...that somebody from the church assists them?
Kartuzinski: Yeah, I would imagine we, would want know...
Det. Sudler: Okay.
Kartuzinski: See what is the matter...if we can know.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Do you recall what time of day this was?
Kartuzinski: This was at night. I don't exactly what...maybe between 7 and 9 I would say would be a good guess.
Det. Sudler: Okay. And you went to Morton Plant Hospital?
Kartuzinski: Right.
Det. Sudler: Okay. And what happened when you arrived there?
Kartuzinski: Umm.. I arrived at the reception of the emergency area and a. .a man came to me who introduced himself to me. He was the employer of Lisa McPherson.
Det. Sudler: Do you remember his name?

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Kartuzinski: Yes. It's David Slaughter.
Det. Sudler: Okay.
Kartuzinski: And he...he informed me that she was in a room in the back. So I asked the receptionist... there was three ladies there and I asked one of them if they had...1 said that I was a minister from the church and I asked to be able to see Lisa McPherson. And a few minutes later, she directed me to where she was.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...did you go back to where Lisa was at.. saw her?
Kartuzinski: Right
Det. Sudler: Can you describe how Lisa was when you went back there?
Kartuzinski: She was laying down but not totally laying down. Her. her...the top of her bodywas sort of elevated. And she was in a conversation with a nurse. .a..a male nurse who oh... okay... so I came in and I told this nurse that I was a minister from the church. I looked at Lisa and said hi to her and she said hi to me and smiled at me. She was white...white...pale.
Det. Sudler: Okay.
Kartuzinski: He introduced himself to me...said he was Joe.. I don't remember if he gave me his second name. But I don't remember that I said my name either actually. Det. Sudler:' Okay.
Kartuzinski: Then he informed me that he was just...he just wanted to continue the...asking her questions. Then Lisa grabbed my hand, so know.. I held her hand as he was asking her questions.
Det. Sudler: Do you remember what kind of questions he was asking?
Kartuzinski: Yes...yes. He was asking her questions like "What is your name? old are you?...what is your address?. where do you work?...have you taken alcohol today or

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do you take medicine or drugs?...this type of thing...
Det. Sudler: Okay.
Kartuzinski: Maybe fifteen or twenty questions. And she...she answered...she answered the questions. Then at one point she said... she told him and me that she wanted to leave. She said "I want to leave.. I want to go to the church with him"...meaning me. He said "That's fine"...he said "All the...all the answers you're giving me are right...but how do you explain what you did today that you took your clothes off in the street?" or "on the road"...1 don't know what he said exactly. So she said something like "You're right...this was not a rational action and I'm sorry." She was like embarrassed. She said "I'm sorry I did that.. I think I wanted to create some effect...I'm sorry I did's not rational"...something to that effect. Then she said again "But you know, I don't want to stay here...1 want to go to the hotel on Ft. Harrison with him"...meaning me..."I don't want to stay here". So then the nurse asked me if I could step out of the room... that he wanted to ask her some questions with her only there. So I...1 left the room know.1 stood in the... there is a corridor there...1 stood there. And maybe three or four minutes later he came out and he told me that he saw no need to keep her there...that she'd answered the questions well. Whatever had happened was over or whatever.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Do you remember how Lisa was acting? Did she seem like her normalself?
Kartuzinski: She I said, when I first went in there she looked rather pale and a little upset. She looked upset and...
Det. Sudler: Was she crying?

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Kartuzinski: No. She was not crying. She know...maybe embarrassed...concerned...upset...this type of thing.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Did she have any physical injury that you may have noted?
Kartuzinski: I didn't see any. I don't recall really.
Det. Sudler: Airight. your opinion,'do you think that she should have stayed in the hospital or....?
Kartuzinski: She didn't want to stay there. That...that was very clear to me. She really wanted to leave there and she know...wanting to rest and relax... this type of thing.
Det. Sudler: tJh Huh. Did you think she was rational?
Kartuzinski: Well, she answered all of his know... normally. And he thought know. He said that he saw no need for her to stay there.
Det. Sudler: Okay. So you don't think that the know... released her unwisely or that they should have kept her for more observation?..
Kartuzinski: I don't think so...especially if she did not want to stay. She made that very clear.
Det. Sudler: AIright. Yet at that point you didn't notice any injuries to her body or...?
Kartuzinski: No..
Det. Sudler: Okay. Alright. Did...was anybody else present with you while the nurse was asking these questions?
Kartuzinski: No. It was the three of us.
Det. Sudler: Okay.. .
Kartuzinski: The...the...excuse me..there were two girls at the entrance of the there is...there was a little reception room if you want...and there were two girls there.
Det. Sudler: And who were...who were they?
Kartuzinski: So one of them I didn't know. The other one is a

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doctor who lives around here...Jeannie Decuypere.
Det. Sudler: Jeannie Decuypere?
Kartuzinski: Decuypere.
Det. Sudler: Airight. And you don't know who the other woman was?
Kartuzinski: No.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...did..what did Lisa say to you? Did she give any know...or go into any detail why she took her clothes off or...?
Kartuzinski: No. She...she...and I didn't ask her any questions either. She was answering the questions and it was... you know...what she said was she was sorry she did that and that it was irrational. But...
Det. Sudler: Did she give any reason why...1 mean...she would have these irrational behavior... was she under any pressure from a relationship that might have, went bad or work or...?
Kartuzinski: I don't...she didn't say anything like that.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Did you have any knowledge of any problems in her life?
Kartuzinski: I wouldn't know really.
Det. Sudler: You...okay...she never discussed that with you?
Kartuzinski: No.
Det. Sudler: Okay. you know if she know... or had any problem with alcohol or drugs or any medical condition?,'
Kartuzinski: I wouldn't think so. You know, we do not in the church generally take any alcohol or drugs whatsoever.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Airight. But she never...this was never brought to you... like to you from anybody?
Kartuzinski: Nb.
Det. Sudler: Okay. don't know if she had any type of medical problems or know...eating disorders or a nutrition problem?

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Kartuzinski: , No. I...what I figured at that point was that the hospital was satisfied with whatever examinations they'd done.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Were you present when Lisa signed her discharge papers?.
Kartuzinski: Uh Huh.
Det. Sudler: You were?
Kartuzinski: No. The next...the next thing that occurred was after the nurse told me he saw no reason to keep her there is - I went back to the reception there to...1 saw her employer there. AndIdon't know what happened between that point and when she walked out.
Det. Sudler: Okay. She did walk out of the hospital on her own power?
Kartuzinski: Yeah.
Det. Sudler: Okay. She didn't be in a wheelchair or anything like that?
Kartuzinski: Oh was walking.
Det. Sudler: So after she got out of the hospital, what happened at that point?
Kartuzinski: Well, when she came out to the reception area...which I would think was maybe ten minutes later... something like that...1...1 asked if she needed a ride. And she said yes, she would appreciate a ride to the Ft. Harrison Hotel. So I said "Okay, I can give you a ride". And I took her to my car, which was in the parking lot close by and drove her to the hotel.
Det. Sudler: Okay. When she got to the hotel, what happened at that point?
Kartuzinski: tJmm...well, I dropped her off at the hotel and she got a room. I parked my car and I then asked where she was. I wanted to check that she was well settled and I was directed to a cabana. And she was sitting

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on the bed and I said "Are you airight here?" and she said "Yes".
Det. Sudler: Did she give you any reason why she wanted to go to the church and not home?
Kartuzinski: I got the idea that she wanted to relax and rest and be away from work or whatever. I didn't pry.
Det. Sudler: Okay. So in the drive from the hospital to the church, she didn't give any reason why she wanted to specifically go there and not home?
Kartuzinski: No, I..and I didn't want to ask know.
Det. Sudler: Okay.
Kartuzinski: It was fine with me that she wanted to go to the hotel.
Det. Carrasq: Did you have any conversation on that ride?
Kartuzinski: Just know... "I want to go there and rest and I...". She asked me what the music that was playing. I had a tape in the car. This type of thing. It was a three minute ride...very close.
Det. Sudler: Did she.
Det. Carrasq: What tape were you playing?
Kartuzinski: I don't remember. It was classical music.
Det. Sudler: Did she have any personal effects with her?
Kartuzinski: Not that I
Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...did know.. I check into the hotel just like a know...any... any...there's a registration desk I guess and you get a room. Is that what she did? -
Kartuzinski: Yeah. I'm.. I dropped her down..down at the first floor of the garage there's a breezeway there and some hotel staff was there. So I asked him "Could you take her to get a room?" and I went car.
Det. Sudler: Okay. And she was taken I guess ,to the cabanas?

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Kartuzinski: She was...yeah, I imagine she was.
Det. Sudler: Okay. went there later to talk to her that night?
Kartuzinski: Yes...well, just ten minutes later.
Det. Sudler: Ten minutes later...okay. Do you remember where... what room she was in or where she was at?
Kartuzinski: It was a cabana. The Ft. Harrison has cabanas bordering the pool.
Det. Sudler: And how was Lisa's demeanor at that point when you talked to, her?
Kartuzinski: I'm sorry?
Det. Sudler: Or her was her attitude...was she...?
Kartuzinski: She looked more relaxed at that point. I truly think she just wanted to stay there more than anything else. She just wanted to relax.
Det. Sudler: So she was more relaxed?
Kartuzinski: Yes.
Det. Sudler: Was anybody with her?.
Kartuzinski: I don't recall. There may have been one person there. I was in and out in a one minute period... just checking "Are you okay here?"... "Yes".
Det. Sudler: Do you know if Lisa asked anybody to get any clothes for her or anything from her home that she might need?
Kartuzinski: I don't know that actually.
Det. Sudler: She didn't ask you?
Kartuzinski: No.
Det. Sudler: Umm...did you see Lisa anymore while she was staying at the cabanas?
Kartuzinski: No. After that, know...after I left her, I went back to my office and I called the medical liaison office and asked whoever answered the phone to check on Lisa and see if she needed anything.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Who was the medical liaison officer that time?

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Do you remember?
Kartuzinski: I don't remember but there's several girls that work in the area.
Det. Sudler: Okay. And you just called the office and asked for... for someone to check on Lisa.
Kartuzinski: Someone give some assistance.
Det. Sudler: Did you ever follow up on that?
Kartuzinski: The.. I would think maybe three or four days later I met one of the medical liaison officers and asked her for some information.
Det. Sudler: Do you remember who that was?
Kartuzinski: I think it was Janis Johnson or the spanish girl. I don't... I'm not sure.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...what did they say to you?
Kartuzinski: Uh...that she had a bit of trouble eating and sleeping also not too well the first two... two or three days but that it was better now.
Det. Sudler: Okay. And this was about three days. after...?
Kartuzinski: Three or four days maybe.
Det. Sudler: Three or four days after. So that gave you an indication that she...that she was improving?
Kartuzinski: Yes...yeah, that know.. I took it as okay, she's getting what she needed here...some rest.
Det. Sudler: Alright. far as any ,other notifications that you made to anybody other than the medical office, was there anybody else that you notified about Lisa's condition?
Kartuzinski: No.
Det. Sudler: Okay. You didn't talk to any family members or... or any of her friends or any... anybody like that?
Kartuzinski: No.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Would it be normal for a...a minister or an

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auditor to intervene at this point? Would you... would you have had somebody come there know..obviously she was having some problems... would you have somebody come there to counsel them or to try to give them support?
Kartuzinski: Oh, absolutely. This is the normal thing to do.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Then was anybody assigned to her at that point?
Kartuzinski: mean once in the hotel?
Det. Sudler: Yeah, in the hotel.
Kartuzinski: Oh no. .no...she made it very clear that all she wanted to do was just be there and rest.
Det. Sudler: Okay.
Kartuzinski: She didn't ask for any processing.
Det. Sudler: Okay. So nobody came in and assisted her?.
Kartuzinski: No.
Det. Sudler: Okay. you recall...did you have any contact with Lisa after you spoke to the medical liaison officer?
Kartuzinski: , No. The last...the last time I saw her was when I checked on her.
Det. Sudler: Okay.
Kartuzinski: That night.
Det. Sudler: Airight. And you didn't see her any other time. How did you find out about her... her death?
Kartuzinski: Janis told me that actually...Janis Johnson.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Do you remember when?
Kartuzinski: The same night later...a few hours later.
Det. Sudler: Were you aware that she went to the hospital?
Kartuzinski: Yes, I was aware of that. ,
Det. Sudler: Okay. That night?
Kartuzinski: Yes..
Det. Sudler: Okay.

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Kartuzinski: Just before actually.
Det. Sudler: Okay. did you find out about that?
Kartuzinski: Well, sometime that afternoon or evening I was notified that there was some sort of medical difficulty. So I had someone in my office call or place a message..a beep to the medical liaison office to...
Det. Sudler: Do you recall who called your office and said that Lisa had medical problem?
Kartuzinski: No...1.. I think my assistant mentioned it to me.
Det. Sudler: And your...who's your assistant?
Kartuzinski: Lacey.
Det. Sudler: Lacey...?
Kartuzinski: Spencer.
Det. Sudler: Lacey Spencer. Did she mention to,you that Lisa had a medical problem?
Kartuzinski: She brought me a note or some sort of message... something like that.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Do you know how that note originated...where it came from?
Kartuzinski: Uh Uh.
Det. Sudler: Okay. So at this point you called the...?
Kartuzinski: So I called for some...some of of them... I called' for an officer to check into this.
Det. Sudler: Okay.
Kartuzinski: And so later that day...that evening...Janis Johnson came to my office and she told me that she...this Lisa had some infection that she was worried about. And she asked to use the phone and she...she called the doctor.
Det. Sudler: Okay. What time did you receive that message that Lisa had a medical problem? Was that earlier that day or...?
Kartuzinski: Yeah. I do not recall exactly. Maybe two or three hours before that point.

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Det. Sudler: Okay. Was it the afternoon or the morning?
Kartuzinski: Oh, it was definitely in the afternoon.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Airight. So Dr. Johnson I guess was calling from your office to Dr. Minkoff?
Kartuzinski: , To a doctor...yes.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Airight. Did you hear any part of that conversation?
Kartuzinski: Well, she mentioned that she felt she had a big infection and know...what...what should we do about this. And the.. I guess he acknowledged that something should be done. With the description she used some words I didn't fully understand but she looked worried. And she hung up and told me that she was gonna take Lisa to Dr. Minkoff.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm..did you go down and see Lisa or anything?
Kartuzinski: No.
Det. Sudler: Okay. So you hadn't been in the room since the time. that you checked on her?
Kartuzinski: No.
Det. Sudler: Okay. And then I guess...what happened after that?
Kartuzinski: So she left in a hurry from my office. And then four or five hours later she reported to me that Lisa had died upon arriving at the hospital.
Det. Sudler: Did she give you any indication of what...what killed her...why she died?
Kartuzinski: I don't remember if it was then or the next day that she mentioned meningitis as probable illness.
Det. Sudler: Janis mentioned that to you?
Kartuzinski: Uh Huh.
Det. Sudler: Did you.have any contact or arrangements with the family or made any notifications about her death?
Kartuzinski: Oh no.
Det. Sudler: Okay. What activities did you take part in after

Page 15 know...with Lisa' know...?
Kartuzinski: No.
Det. Sudler: What about her room? Did she have any effects in the room that were moved... any personal items?
Kartuzinski: I have no knowledge of that.
Det. Sudler: Okay. Do you know who would be responsible for like cleaning out her room know....?
Kartuzinski: The...the know...has maids and such.
Det. Sudler: The maids...okay. at at Lisa's request, she was pretty much you say left alone during this period of time?
Kartuzinski: I imagine.
Det. Sudler: Umm...we know...have know... several people in... in this investigation. And we're just trying to look know....the period of know...between Lisa's accident and what happened.. And we understood know... from talking to people at the know... with regard to psychiatry and psychiatric medicine...they don't particularly use that...they're know...there's other things and other methods that the church uses other than the psychiatric profession. And one thing...apparently Lisa did have some type know...nervous breakdown or this type know. She disrobed after a traffic accident, which is not normal behavior. And one of the things our investigation revealed... that an introspection rundown would be something. Did Lisa request that or ask to take part in that?
B. Johnson: Where...this isn't an answer but where.. I don't remember this. I mean... it came up yesterday for

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the first time on this...on the introspection rundown.
Det. Sudler: didn't come from any of the individuals here. We talked to a lot of know... on...on the case. And that's what I'm just wondering... if from what I understand... if you did have some type of breakdown... that that might be something...did Lisa request that or was know...part of any of that?
Kartuzinski: No. Lisa..she wanted to rest..she wanted to. SIDE TWO OF TAPE
Det. Sudler: You're not aware of any...anything that she would've been involved in that' would've been strenuous to her physically or anything like that?
Kartuzinski: No, not at all. .
Det. Sudler: During that period of weeks that she was at the hotel, did you see her out and about.. you the pool or. anything like that?
Kartuzinski: No.
Det. Sudler: In any of the restaurants?
Kartuzinski: No. But then again I'm very busy in my own office.
Det. Sudler: Okay.
Kartuzinski: I didn't happen to see her. .
Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...1 understand that, when she first arrived there, she got somewhat combative and had I guess little seizures..that type of thing. Did you hear about that?
Kartuzinski: Uh Uh...
Det. Sudler: You didn't hear about that. Any questions?

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Det. Carrasq: No.
Det. Sudler: Okay. I don't have anymore questions. I guess this does it. Okay. The time is 1140 hours. I'm concluding the tape now.

REPORTING: Det. Ron Sudler/elg ID NO: _ 608 DATE:_5J30/96 E STATUS: Active EXCEPTION TYPE: _______ DATE CLEARED:___________ ARANCE TYPE ______ 1. Extradition Declined. Arrest'. 2. AR of Prim. Offense, Secondary Offense. w/o Pros Adult _____Juv'____ 3. Death of Offender 5. Prosecution Deci Exceptional 4. V/W Refused to Cooperate 6. Juv./No Custody Unfounded ,. REVIEWING: DATE: SA INFO:'___________ 17