Interview with Ann Carlson
| Date: | February 18, 1997 |
| Pages: | 34 |
SUPPLEMENT/CONTINUATION FL0520300/Clearwater Police Department Report No. 95-29158 Offense Death Investigation Date of Report 2/18/97 Location 644 Pierce Street Orig Incident Date 12/6/95 Victim Lisa McPherson W Prosecute Yes No Investigator Det. Jorge Carrasquillo Previous Status Active Subject None Impound Inventoiy None
We are...we being Agent Sharon Feola and myself, Det. Carrasquillo, are currently at the residence of Ann Carison.
| Det. Carrasquillo: | And the address is X, Texas. Correct? |
| Carlson: | Yes. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. Ann, what I...what I need you to do Ann for identification purposes, would...would you give us your full name. Would you spell it and also provide your date ofbirth and your social security number and your address. And speak up so my secretary can hear you. |
| Carlson: | My name...my name is Ann D. Carison. My birthdate is 4/21/...X. My social security number is X. My residence...my current residence is X, Texas X. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay Ann, what I'm gonna do now is I'm gonna initiate an interview with you at 4:30 p.m. X time. And what I want you to do is I want you to go back in your mind...we're...we're really concerned with the time frame from Lisa's death up to date. And would you tell us what your involvement has been in that time frame. |
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| Carlson: | Okay. Beginning with the telephone call...the day Fannie got the message that her daughter had died...it was the next day. It.. I don't know if it was sometime...probably around 12 or 1 that she was notified that her daughter was dead. She began calling me, and as soon as I got the message I went to her. |
| Agent Feola: | Went to the house on... |
| Carlson: | Went to the house on X where she lived. And I don't recall exactly when the people from Scientology began coming in. But Benetta Slaughter came in with.., there was three or four people with her. It seemed that there were at all times at least three or four people with her. |
| Agent Feola: | Did you know Benetta Slaughter from any previous occasions? |
| Carlson: | No, I had never met Benetta Slaughter before. After she came in, embraced us very nicely, and told us how sorry she was that Lisa had passed away, she made the sta...I asked her... I said.., she said she was gonna be here for a while and I said "Benetta, how long do you plan to stay?" And she said "As long as it takes." That sounded strange to me because I wondered why it was gonna take long at all for her. I found out later in talking with my sister that she had spoken with her over the phone and said that she knew she was in bad health and not feeling too well due to a rested case of sclerderma... that she would just give her a check for the car and for all of Lisa's personal belongings... furniture and etc....that she wouldn't need to make a trip to Florida. |
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| Agent Feola: | Did they talk about a price? |
| Carlson: | No price was mentioned. |
| Agent Feola: | No price was mentioned? |
| Carlson: | Fannie said to me "Well, that might be the easiest way for me...I might just let her do it." And I said "No Fannie, well not do it...we'll go to Florida and see what's going on." |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Just try....I'm gonna try to get a time location for that conversation. Was Lisa already here...was her body already here? |
| Carlson: | No, her body was not here. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | So this is prior to you going to... |
| Carlson: | Prior to...that's right... |
| Agent Feola: | Prior to her being shipped here or...? |
| Carlson: | Prior to... prior to her being shipped here. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Was it about a week before you went? Because I knew you went to... |
| Carlson: | Well, we... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Florida December 18th or 14th.... |
| Carlson: | We waited until there were cheaper fares. We all...my sister and I said we'd pay our own way and she said "No, let me pay the way and let's wait another week until the fares are gonna be reduced." And that's why we waited. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | So you waited about a week? |
| Carlson: | Waited about a week before we went. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. So you got to Florida about December 15th... 16th... |
| Carlson: | Umm.... Det. Carrasquillo:. Somewhere around there... |
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| Carlson: | My sister Dell knows exactly but I don't recall the exact date. I'm not good at remembering dates. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | So it was about a week before you got to Florida that this conversation with Benetta took place? |
| Carlson: | No, wait.... |
| Agent Feola: | It was... |
| Carlson: | Now wait a minute...stop...wait a minute.... |
| Agent Feola: | Because the service... |
| Carlson: | This conversation took place at the time the service took place. |
| Agent Feola: | Which was here in Dallas. |
| Carlson: | The wake here in Dallas...I'm thinking that.. |
| Agent Feola: | Which was the next week. |
| Carlson: | That's right. This...when the body was shipped back here. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. |
| Carlson: | And before this... so let me back up before this... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. |
| Carlson: | Benetta had told my sister over the telephone that it was Lisa's wish to be cremated. |
| Agent Feola: | Right... |
| Carlson: | We...! didn't think too much about it at the time, but I thought that's kinda strange in my mind because they all had burial plots at Resfiand Cemetery. |
| Agent Feola: | Lisa did? |
| Carlson: | I don't know. I think there was a plot there for her. I'm not real sure. But anyway, Fannie in her state of shock said "Well, if that's what Lisa wants, we'll do it." And later she |
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| regretted it a million times that she did it. But this is because Benetta had said it was her last wish. Well, I don't know why, a 36 year old girl would be discussing cremation and her death...you know. Why would she be? I'm 76 years old and I don't think about death. And so I thought that was a little strange. But as I recall now, we were there and the little house was filled with Scientology people. | |
| Agent Feola: | On Jonesboro? |
| Carlson: | On Jonesboro. And we were in the kitchen and I had said, to my sister before that we will go. And she let it slip in front of somebody. And I looked at her real quick and she stopped stopped her conversation. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Is...is that your sister Dell? |
| Carlson: | Dell...yes. And I...you know... I thought don't let them know what we're gonna do. And so she stopped right quick and she said "Well, I don't know when we're going but maybe we'll go." And... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | So that was about a week after the 6th of December? |
| Agent Feola: | Yeah, cause...wasn't her service like the 13th or....? |
| Carlson: | Oh, I can't remember honey. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Well, we know now. We've got the tape... |
| Carlson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | The time frame is about a week after her death. |
| Carlson: | Well, this happened... this happened when they came there for the service. And Benetta had chicken sent in. She had flowers sent in. |
| Agent Feola: | To Jonesboro? |
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| Carlson: | Oh.. ,to Jonesboro. She couldn't do enough. And so there was no more said about us coming to Florida. I said "Keep quiet about Florida." |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | And she wanted to give you a check or give Fannie a check... |
| Carlson: | Yeah.., she wanted... I |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Wanted to give her a check... |
| Agent Feola: | For everything that she owned. |
| Carlson: | For everything so she wouldn't have to make any trip to Florida at all. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. |
| Carlson: | Okay. We went to Florida...uh...but...but let me make one more statement... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Uh Huh... |
| Carlson: | While we were there, I questioned these people.' I said "Well, what happened to her...where was she when she got sick?" And one girl said "Well, she was in a seminar in Orlando." And I questioned another one. I said "Where was Lisa when she got sick?" When I could get them away from the group. "Well, she was in her apartment." And we just got conflicting statements about where she was when she got sick. |
| Agent Feola: | Do you remember Ann... and I know this has probably been a while...but do you remember specifically what persons made what statements? |
| Carlson: | Oh gosh...now...this girl's name..! had it on the tip of my tongue because I was gonna tell you that she was severely reprimanded for making a statement. Because when we |
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| went to Clearwater, she came in. Boy, she was like a master sergeant then and she had told us.... | |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Do you have the names that... I think one was Brenda... |
| Carlson: | Brenda....yes, Brenda was the girl...Brenda was the girl.. |
| Agent Feola: | Did she have long hair? |
| Carlson: | Long.. ,Brenda had... |
| Agent Feola: | Brenda Hubert? |
| Carlson: | Yes, that's Brenda. |
| Agent Feola: | And then there was Benetta and another girl...possibly a girl named Jeannie. |
| Carlson: | Jeannie. Jeannie made a statement too and she was given the eye for her statement. I was in the room with her. |
| Agent Feola: | Who gave her the eye? |
| Carlson: | Benetta. |
| Agent Feola: | Okay. Did you remember what either one of them said? |
| Carlson: | Oh, I know what...well, I'm trying to think of what Jeannie said. But I know what... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Brenda?. |
| Carlson: | I think I asked Brenda where she was and I think she told me that she was at a...at a seminar in Orlando. |
| Agent Feola: | And got sick? |
| Carlson: | And got sick. |
| Agent Feola: | Alright. |
| Carlson: | And then we...and then wait till you hear all this. Listen, I hope I'm not getting conf...confused in my mind because there's so much happened. |
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| Agent Feola: | Okay. The first trip...just to clarify...the first trip when they came down here after Lisa died. The memorial service was on Monday, December 11th. |
| Carlson: | Okay. |
| Agent Feola: | Okay. They came down a few days prior to that Monday? |
| Carlson: | Yes...yes. |
| Agent Feola: | And this is when Benetta came in the house and was... |
| Carlson: | Oh yeah, she came...they were just there. Every time we'd look up, here they came. They were' just there all the time. |
| Agent Feola: | Bringing flowers and... |
| Carlson: | Yeah, and bringing food and "What can we do?"...you know.., and just being really nice. And Fannie didn't say much:..you know. I.. I kinda quizzed them a little bit,..you know. And then the day that we went, they came and they all came out there in a... in a white limousine.., the Scientology people. The church was filled with Scientology people. |
| Agent Feola: | At the service. |
| Carlson: | That we never saw before...you know. And then after that, I don't think Benetta came back to the house. I don't recall her coming back with them. |
| Agent Feola: | Okay. Did you have an open ser.. an |
| Carlson: | Yes. |
| Agent Feola: | Open house after that? |
| Carlson: | Yes. But there was beautiful flowers. They sent beautiful flowers. And I think that's.., that's about all that I recall happening there. And then when we went to Florida, we had |
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| a rented car. And as we go in, it's just like...you know...like you seen a bird eating...you know...and they're looking around. This Gloria Cruz that was her roommate saw it the minute I drove in. And she come running over to the car "Hi Fannie, Hi Fannie." | |
| Agent Feola: | Was Gloria with... did you know Gloria from when they...when she lived in Texas? |
| Carlson: | No, I didn't know her. |
| Agent Feola: | Did Fannie know her? |
| Carlson: | No. |
| Agent Feola: | Was she at the service in Dallas? |
| Carlson: | Yes, she...Benetta... |
| Agent Feola: | Gloria. |
| Carlson: | Oh...Gloria. No, Gloria did not come.. Gloria didn't come. I was getting Gloria mixed up.. Gloria did not come. |
| Agent Feola: | Okay. |
| Carlson: | We never saw Gloria until that day. And she and one of the Scientology boys were moving out the things out of the apartment. But we,..the reason.. I've got to back up some. |
| Agent Feola: | Okay. |
| Carlson: | The reason that Fannie asked her...I said "Fannie, find out why she didn't call you, when your daughter died." And she said the reason she didn't call is because she was going through a box under the bed trying to find Fannie's phone number, which we knew that was a lie because her mother lived here in Dallas and you know there is such a thing as information and she should have it. |
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| Det. Carrasquillo: | You're talking about Benetta? |
| Carlson: | Benetta...uh huh. So she said she was up all hours of the night. Well, when we got to Florida we found out why she was up all hours of the night. When we went in there, they were.., this girl was packing up stuff and taking it out. There was.., the only paper products that we saw was one roll of toilet tissue, a newspaper laying on the floor, and a roll of paper towels on the sink. Now they took what they wanted out of that apartment. And we stood by and couldn't do anything about it because there's so many....we don't know...you know. We had pictures of her things. The pictures were off the wall. I said to Benetta "Why are the pictures off the wall?" "Well, we knew you all were coming, so we were just taking things down to make it easy for you." And... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Let...let me just stop you for a second and I'll bring you right back to that train of thought. Did Gloria ever meet Fannie prior? |
| Carlson: | No, not... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | So how.., how did she know it was Fannie? |
| Agent Feola: | It was Benetta. She... she said she had gotten confused. |
| Carlson: | No no, it was Gloria that came running to the car. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | And saying "Hi...."... saying "Hi... |
| Carlson: | "Hi Fannie" |
| Agent Feola: | How did she know yall? |
| Carlson: | I do not know |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | That's what I want to clarify. |
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| Carlson: | How she knew it.... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Your sister Fannie had never met Gloria before? |
| Carlson: | Not that I know of. She had never mentioned meeting the girl. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. And you had never met her. |
| Carlson: | I've never met her. And how she knew us I'll never know. But she comes over "Hi Fannie...Hi Fannie." |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. And then another question I want to clarify... |
| Carlson: | Yeah. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | To get you back on the train of thought is... |
| Carlson: | Right. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | You never told anybody or any Scientologists that you were gonna go up to Clearwater? |
| Carlson: | No, I didn't. My sister let it slip in the kitchen. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. But you...but no...it was never confirmed that you were going to Clearwater? |
| Carlson: | It was never confirmed that we were going. |
| Agent Feola: | But after that, no one ever gave them any indication that you had purchased airline tickets |
| Carlson: | No, |
| Agent Feola: | And rented a car... |
| Carlson: | No,..no. We feel like that.., that the house over there has been bugged from day one. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | And yet Gloria says to you "We knew you were coming, so we're taking down the things to make it easier." |
| Carlson: | Benetta said "We figured you'd be coming down to get her things, so we took them off the wall"...you know. |
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| Agent Feola: | They figured? |
| Carlson: | Yeah. "We figured you'd be coming to get her things." |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | So that's what...that's what...it wasn't Gloria...it was Benetta that made that statement. |
| Carlson: | Benetta made that statement. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Oh..right...continue with your train of thought. |
| Carlson: | Okay. So I questioned...I'm the only one that gave them hell. They... they hate me I know. She did especially. Dell will tell you her husband's face turned as red as that box and he wanted to hit me, but I... nobody spoke up. And they...we couldn't pack. I mean here I am I'm on the phone. I'm trying to get.... see, when we went down there, we knew nothing about a minor accident... nothing at all. We didn't know that the car was not driveable...that we couldn't bring it home. |
| Agent Feola: | That's why you were planning on... |
| Carlson: | Yes. We didn't know anything. But when we were going through these things packing them, I found this box back in behind that had this stuff in it. And I said "Oh God, look what I've found. This is stuff that they won't look at. Because I was running in there looking under the bed. There was nothing under the bed. There was nothing anywhere... no evidence of any kind. And I said to Benetta "Benetta, it seems strange to me that there's no records of anything in this house." I said "No bills of any kind.., nothing... no checks." She said "Well, she kept everything at the office." And a few days later.., we were |
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| there I think four...four or five days. She brought a box about like this I think of old bank statements. That's all she brought was bank statements. But in this box that I found and pulled out, that's where the documents came from. And going through there, I found an accident report and it has a man's phone number on it that was involved in the accident. I called him and I said "We're down here..we don't know anything...would you please help me." He said "I'll not talk to you over the phone but if you'll come meet me I will." I said "We'll be there...you tell me where and when." He told me and we met him. But he's so scared of those people that he had us loop away from his office out under a tree on a bench. | |
| Agent Feola: | He told us about that...yeah. |
| Carlson: | And then when...another time I was talking to him, he said "Turn your back quick, there goes one." Those people down there are fearful of those people and I am too. And so... let me get back to...back to in the apartment. Every time Benetta would come over there...which was quite often.. I mean...they were coming in and out of of there all day long...all day long...two and three and four of them....never one... most of the time not two...most of the time three. |
| Agent Feola: | Don't you think that's odd Ann? |
| Carlson: | I consider it very odd. |
| Agent Feola: | Considering they didn't even know that you were gonna be there. |
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| Carlson: | Yeah. And I've never seen her. Now, Dell might know whether Fannie knew her or not but I don't think she knew her. But they...and you know what, they said...they said well, they were looking for us. Because the minute we pulled in, either they knew that was a rented car or something. They had some way of knowing somehow..either that phone is tapped over there and they knew...because see, they were all over the house. See, when we were in the kitchen they could very easily put a bug in that...inside the phone in the house...and...because they knew when Fannie was in the hospital....they knew everything in advance. |
| Agent Feola: | Why do you say that Ann? |
| Carlson: | Well, because for some reason they knew it before it was made public. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Could it be because they called... |
| Agent Feola: | Fannie... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | When...when Fannie was in the hospital...they... |
| Carlson: | But we never told them that she was in the hospital. Dell kept saying "She's out...she won't be...she'll be back in a little while." She wouldn't...you know...he called and called and called wanting to talk to her. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Who is he? |
| Carlson: | Brian Anderson. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Anytime you...you make a statement and you remember the names, put the names. |
| Carlson: | Remember the names...okay. Well, I'll get back now to... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | You were in the apartment; |
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| Carlson: | To finding these..this box...this box with all these documents in it. And I started pulling out things that I thought would go against those people and prove what rats they really are. And when I came to all these donations and I came to where she had replaced...we knew that her apartment had been broken into. And also I found the checkbook where she had replaced all this stuff and it was gone when we got there. And not only that, this young lady that was there had the phone moved to another address and still in there. So when the phone would ring, they could listen to the conversation I guess. The minute I realized what they had done, I put a stop on the forwarding calls cause I could stop the... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Call forwarding. |
| Carlson: | Call forwarding. They had did that. |
| Agent Feola: | They had the calls forwarded somewhere else? |
| Carlson: | Yes. So I stopped the call forward and I called the telephone company. I said "You take this phone out immediately cause there's.., she has no authority to use this phone number and it's been moved to another address." |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | And we need to find out...get the phone records for that time. |
| Agent Feola: | Yeah. |
| Carlson: | So it may have not been moved. It may have just been call forwarded. But anyway, I stopped the call forwarding the minute I discovered it. And... |
| Agent Feola: | Let me ask you a question Ann...get back to.. you know about...you were saying about how you knew Lisa had gotten |
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| burglarized and she had things stolen and she had replaced them because you said you had the bills... | |
| Carlson: | Well, the checkbook there where she had replaced these things. And now I don't know if Fannie kept that because Fannie's not a person to keep anything. She would have thrown away everything in that box if I hadn't said "No, keep these things for later...we need them...keep them." And they would've thrown away every scrap of paper she had, which was in this little box. That's all we had. And I had the accident report. I called the insurance company. I had the car pulled away to keep them from getting it because we didn't know when they'd just come in and pull it out because the way they were taking things out of there...you know. Well, they did bring back...I said "What happened to her silk flowers?" because I'd seen a...she'd sent her mother a photograph of her...of her apartment. And Brenda spoke up and said "She never watered flowers anyway... they probably just died." Well, silk flowers don't just die. |
| Agent Feola: | And they brought them back? |
| Carlson: | No, they didn't bring them back. But there was a few left but they took...they took what they wanted. And they took her stereo. They took what...they took everything they wanted. And I said "Well, where is her jewelry?" Benetta said "Why it's in there on the vanity...I collected those things." And we got up and went in there with Benetta. And I said "I don't see any jewelry box." She said Well, I don't know where it is." Their excuse is "I don't know." And I said another thing |
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| when we came in the bedroom... I said "Benetta, what happened to that box under the bed that you were going through...what happened to it?" She said "I don't know." And I said "You know...it's strange to me that a girl would give 18 years of her life and this few rags that's left here... and this little bit of furniture and $11 in her savings account is all she has left to show for 18 years of her life." I said "That's pretty sad Benetta." And she had no answer for me. We walked back into the other room. Her husband was sitting right behind me. She was sitting kinda like you are. And she...they said she had donated $3,450 to Winter Wonderland. And I said "Another thing Benetta, don't tell me that a girl would donate $3,450 to this Winter Wonderland when she has $11 in her savings account. I said "I don't believe that for one minute." And Brian Anderson came and brought her a check for $3,450. | |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Is that the check that Brian Anderson gave to... |
| Carlson: | Uh Huh... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | It had nothing to do with a...with a savings account? |
| Carlson: | Heavens no. We tried to go to the bank...tried to find out...you know...if she.., anything about her account. Well, some guy is on her account, so they couldn't give us any information. But we had the bank statements and there was no money in the account. But he continued to use that account even after his death. So his name is Kurt Paine. You've got his address. I hope you question the hell out of him. I shouldn't have said that. |
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| Det. Carrasquillo: | That's okay. You say what you feel. |
| Carlson: | But I get real wrought up about this because when I said that about don't...you know...I don't believe a word of it...I looked around and her old husband was just as red as he could be. Because I mean to tell you that that woman takes these girls in and makes them think that she's their bosom buddy. And they drive these people... they drive them. |
| Agent Feola: | Why do you say that Ann? I...I'm curious to know why you say that. |
| Carlson: | I'll tell you why I say it. Because this man that she...now what actually happened was there had been a motorcycle accident. The traffic was stopped. The ambulance was there. She apparently had had a very frustrating day and she was pushed to the limit. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | She being Lisa? |
| Carlson: | Lisa. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. |
| Carlson: | Had been pushed to the limit. And she drove into the back of this man's motor. Minor damage to the car but some damage to his motor. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Motor boat. |
| Carlson: | Well, he told me fishing and working was his life. And he jumped out of his car...he was very angry. But he said "When I saw that girl..."...he said "I knew that something was wrong and she said something to me that made me think that she...something had gone wrong at the office." Well, I know what went wrong at the office. You |
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| know...Benetta was...you know.., they've got rules at Scientology. It's a crime if you don't do this...if you don't do that...you know. And it's punishable in degrees. And so...you know.., she'd gone quite high in spending money...you know. | |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Did...did Mr. McDonald...the driver of the car... |
| Carlson: | Yes...yes...McDonald. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Dd he tell you what..what...what Lisa said? |
| Carlson: | He said that she got out and was waving her arms...said "Where's the people...where's the people?" And he thought that was very strange. And he said she just looked wild. And he said "I couldn't get her off of my mind." He said "When I went home that night, I almost called the police...you know,..that they ought to check into that girl." But he said "I thought well... better mind your own business and leave well enough alone.", But he said she walked right out in the line of traffic and a fireman he said...I guess he yelled at her "Get back in the car... get back in the car." And he said she did. And he said after that she got out of the car and walked down past the ambulance and started taking her clothes off after she got past the ambulance. And that's when... |
| Agent Feola: | What do you think about that? |
| Carlson: | I think she was just trying to draw attention. I think she was just pushed to the end and...and I don't know...you know...she was just.. I don't know...I think she probably did it to attract attention. |
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| Det. Carrasquillo: | Help maybe...a cry for help? |
| Carlson: | Because... a cry for help because in Scientology you don't criticize them and you don't embarrass them...it's punishable. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. So now we're up to your trip to Clearwater. While you were there, did anyone tell you.., give you reasons..additional reasons for her death? |
| Carlson: | Well, Benetta said she died with a blood clot probably from her hip. I said "What do you mean from her hip...how did she get a bruise on her hip?" She said "Well, she bumped into her desk one day." I said "Benetta, she bumped into a desk one day and that caused the blood clot to go to her heart... I don't believe that either." Or to her lungs...maybe it was her lungs.' |
| Agent Feola: | Where did she get that information? Do you know Ann? |
| Carlson: | I don't know but that's what Benetta told me personally. She said there in the presence of Fannie and Dell. Because Fannie had little to say to them. She didn't question her, neither did Dell. And I said "I don't believe that Benetta that she could get a bruise bumping into a desk that would cause something like that." And... |
| Agent Feola: | Had you had any contact with the Medical Examiner? |
| Carlson: | No, none at all. |
| Agent Feola: | Who did the dealings with the Medical Examiner about transporting the body and having Lisa brought back home and all of that.? |
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| Carlson: | Well, I guess Benetta did because we...we didn't have anything to do with... |
| Agent Feola: | Did Fannie have any contact with them? |
| Carlson: | No. We were just...we called down there...you know.. to find out what was going on and nobody seemed to know anything. So I guess Benetta was taking care of all of it cause she had herself down on something I saw as next-of-kin. And...so anyway...from what...from what we heard there...now let's see...we were there and these people kept coming in and coming in. We were trying to pack up the things...I was trying to find out as much as I could while we were there...trying to find out if there was enough insurance on the car...which I did. We did get it repaired. We did get it moved to a safe place where they could not come and take it. And we did....in fact I handled that all.., all for them.. cause Fannie was still in a state of shock...you know...she couldn't do anything. And Dell was busy packing and I went in there and helped pack the rest of the stuff. And...but then I guess their conscience started bothering them because they did bring back a few things. They brought back an iron, a little dressing table, and an bench...and an ironing board. And then when they came in, I guess they thought that we were just gonna give them what was there because this Brenda said "I sure would like to have that dining room suit...I'd really like to have that." And I just... |
| Agent Feola: | You're kidding me. Did she really say that? |
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| Carlson: | We got down to this book...this big massive bookcase is just full of Scientology books. So Fannie said well she guessed she'd just give that to Gloria. And I thought for a minute and I said "No, you're not gonna give that to Gloria." I said "You...they've taken enough out of this apartment and they're not gonna get it." So this kid came back. He said "Well, I came after the books. And I said "Young man, you're not taking another thing out of this apartment." I said "You've taken all you're gonna take." He said "Some of those books belong to Gloria." I said "Bring me proof or show me where her name in em and I'll let you take em... otherwise you cannot take a thing out of here." I said "You've taken all you're gonna take out of here." So he never came back. So they were just bluffing. So then.... |
| Agent Feola: | I think they were bluffing. You could've bluffed them on a lot of things. |
| Carlson: | But see, I was...you know...Fannie didn't want me to. She said "Oh, don't say anything to them...don't make them mad."...you know. And at the last I thought well, to hell with them... I... they're making me mad because we couldn't do anything. They'd come in... three or four of them...and just sit down...you know. And...so finally I.. I said "Look, you folks are gonna have to go because we've got another appointment. We didn't have an appointment. I just wanted to get rid of them...you know. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Let...let me ask you this. You said you took care of the Jeep... getting the Jeep moved. |
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| Carlson: | Yes. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Did you find out or did anybody ever tell you who brought the Jeep to Lisa's apartment? |
| Carlson: | No. I guess she did. Oh, I don't know. No, she didn't because they... she went on to the hospital of course. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | But the Jeep you located at Lisa's apartment? |
| Carlson: | Yes, it was at the apartment...uh huh. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | So you finally got them all out of there and...and now you pack your stuff up and come back to Texas. |
| Carlson: | Yeah. But while we were there, one night we were followed. |
| Agent Feola: | I've got another question. |
| Carlson: | Okay. |
| Agent Feola: | Go ahead with that.... |
| Carlson: | We were followed by two guys in a white car.., followed to.. to the apartment. |
| Agent Feola: | And another thing, how do you know you were followed? |
| Carlson: | Because this car followed us right to the place. And I was driving and I made turns where somebody would have to be following me to...to make... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | To...to be there. |
| Carlson: | To be there. And so I asked the.., the apartment manager...I said "Did you ever see Lisa?" And he said "Oh, she's a sweet girl." He said "She was always so friendly." He said "Everytime I saw her, she'd just yell at me no matter how far across the lawn I was or anything... she'd wave at me." And he said "The last time I saw her.,."...which he said was about two weeks ago...you know...I guess when we there he said |
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| maybe two weeks. I don't remember the time but he could probably tell you. And his name is Robert. And when he said...he said "Two women were holding her up"...he said "Her hair was all disheveled"...and he said "They kinda turned her around where she wouldn't be facing me and helped her up the stairs"...you know "helping her along." So I thought that was pretty strange. And then when we went to the Police Department...the detective's office...you know.. ,we...we're talking to them and telling them basically what I'm telling you...you know...that we think this...this is really strange...you know...we know something's really happened to her. And so I think it was Ron...the heavyset guy.... | |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Sudler. |
| Carlson: | I said I'd like to go. and talk to the two policemen that were there and I'd also like to go to the hospital. He said "Well, I want to tell you something..."...he said "You can't bring her back...you know enough...why don't you just get out of town while you can...just get out of town." That's the same thing the apartment manager told us. He said "If I were you all, I'd just get out of town." So...you know... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Did...did Ron say it in a menacing way or was he trying to look out for your well being or your welfare? |
| Carlson: | Well, I don't know. Maybe he...maybe he was just looking out for our welfare. I don't know. He just said "You know...you can't bring her back...so if I was you I'd just get |
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| out of town...you know...get what you can and get out of town." That's what he said. | |
| Agent Feola: | Okay. Before you leave Clearwater, did you have contact with any of her neighbors while you were there? |
| Carlson: | I No, we didn't. |
| Agent Feola: | I was just curious. |
| Carlson: | No. |
| Agent Feola: | How about anyone else? |
| Carlson: | Maybe we should have...you know...but we... |
| Agent Feola: | How about anyone else there that.., any other friends perhaps that maybe you had contact with? |
| Carlson: | Well, the girls at the bank said they knew her... the two girls we talked to. They weren't...you know...much help to us. And...of course we were trying to get the car sold over there. I'm on the phone trying to find out the value. The car sat there for a solid year. We couldn't get a death certificate...we couldn't...we couldn't get anything...you know. And we had to take...you know...a loss on the car. And of course we didn't know it wasn't driveable. Dell goes down... she said...Dell says "Well, I guess we'll drive the car." And Benetta said.... SIDE TWO OF TAPE |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Side two continues. And you were talking about the car being driveable or not driveable. |
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| Carlson: | Well, the car was not driveable but we did not know that until we arrived there. No one had told us about an accident. No one had told us about anything. And... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | But just to clarify the last conversation on the other side, Benetta was...indicated to you that the car was driveable? |
| Carlson: | Yes, she did. She indicated the car was, okay...let's go down and drive it.. My sister... she went down to drive the car. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | You said you wanted to back up and say something? |
| Carlson: | Uh...well, I was just trying to think of what I could touch on that I hadn't already mentioned to you. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Well, let me ask you this. And...and...and keep thinking in the back of your mind. But, once you left Clearwater and came back home, did you have anymore contact with any other Church members or anything like that? |
| Carlson: | Brian Anderson made one trip...no, wait a minute...he came back last after they stopped coming...after...you know....! gave them kinda the cold shoulder. Then he came in. |
| Agent Feola: | To the...to the apartment. |
| Carlson: | To the apartment. |
| Agent Feola: | Okay. |
| Carlson: | And I had really gotten a little nasty with Benetta. And I said "I don't believe..." Det. Carrasquillo; This is in Clearwater? |
| Carlson: | In Clearwater. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. |
| Carlson: | "And what you're telling me..." I said "I don't believe anything you're telling me." And she said "Well, you just |
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| come on right now..." And she was practically trying to drag me out the door. "You're going to the hotel and see where she...where she wanted to go...she wanted to go there.., she asked to go there and you're gonna go see her room." And I said "No, I'm not" and I didn't go. | |
| Agent Feola: | She did what? |
| Carlson: | She wanted to take me to see the room that... that she was in. |
| Agent Feola: | Did you ever go to the hotel at all while you were there? |
| Carlson: | No, we didn't...we didn't. |
| Agent Feola: | Did you go to any of the Church facilities? |
| Carlson: | No, we did not...we didn't. We were never asked to go to her office, which we should've gone because she...you know.., she had personal things there that we never knew what she had. They... they did bring her laptop computer back. And...but anyway...I get so wound up in this thing when I think about it. But.., but anyway...Benetta...she had told.,.you know...they just had told so many stories. But then I asked Gloria by herself... I said "Gloria, where was Lisa two weeks before she died?" She said "She was at Benetta's." So when I went in the other room, I said "Benetta, Gloria just told me that Lisa lived at your house the last two weeks." "Uh... heavens no she wasn't at my house.., she was at the hotel...come on, I'll take you." That's what prompted the trip to the hotel. |
| Agent Feola: | How come did you didn't go with her? |
| Carlson: | I should've gone to see where she was... |
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| Agent Feola: | Or maybe she would've never really taken you there. |
| Carlson: | Yeah, she might not have. But anyway, I... she was so angry with me by then because I had questioned her...you know...about everything. |
| Agent Feola: | l So then the contact stopped? |
| Carlson: | Then everything stopped. They stopped coming in. And then Brian Anderson came in alone and I walked up and just kinda put my arm around him. Now a pager...you usually wear it right here...but he had something on him right back here. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | In the middle of his back? |
| Carlson: | Uh Huh. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. |
| Carlson: | And! said "Brian, I hope you'll tell Benetta that I'm sorry that I talked to her like I did because I was just under so much stress...you know." I said "I'm just sorry that I talked to her like I did." I wasn't a bit sorry. I just wanted that to go on his tape. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | So you felt that he was taping you without your consent? |
| Carlson: | I felt like he was taping us. |
| Agent Feola: | Why do you say that? Was he cautious in his words or...? |
| Carlson: | He's always cautious in his words. And even when he came here, Fannie...you know...we all told him how things went and how they did us at the,..you know...at the service...you know. We had the casket open for anybody to come to like whatever you want to call it...and they were there just hovering around it. And my daughter's very smart. She just |
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| goes up there and she got hold of one of them. And she was questioning the heck out of her. And I mean that girl couldn't wait to get away from my daughter. And we were... | |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Which...which daughter is that? |
| Carlson: | My daughter Shirley. But she didn't get any answers out of her because they're...they... they say "I don't, know...! don't know." They're trained., |
| Agent Feola: | Did any of your daughters...who would've been cousins...correct? |
| Carlson: | Yes. |
| Agent Feola: | Did they have any contact with Lisa? |
| Carlson: | No...no...none of the family had any contact with her. |
| Agent Feola: | Okay. And whose daughter is Kim? |
| Carlson: | Kim is my sister Lee's daughter. |
| Agent Feola: | Okay. |
| Carlson: | But now the only contact she had was when she came home on that Jan...on that New Year's party... |
| Agent Feola: | 1994... |
| Carlson: | That I was in Tyler with the sister that you just met. Then the cousins all got together over there. And Lee told ma that.., she loved to dance...that she left there to go to a dance...that she had so much fun. She got as far as a few blocks away and turned around and came back and said "I want to be with my family...I want to be with my family." And...and I do know...this is a fact...I do know that, when she came to Dallas, her mother and she would go to boutiques...this is what I told Benetta...I said "Benetta, |
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| where's her nice clothes? I said "Nothing but rags in that closet" And she said "Well, she didn't...you know., she didn't spend money on clothes or jewelry." I said "Benetta, I know better than that.." I said "I know that her mother went with her to boutiques and she bought expensive clothing...I know she did...don't tell me that." And so the best things were gone. And while Dell was in there, she reached down and got a handbag and said "That thing belongs to me." It could've been...you know...because they were back and forth. But...and then they did bring back some luggage. They took that out and said "Well...you know...we had luggage alike." They brought back a couple pieces of luggage. | |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | I want to go back a little bit. And...and let's talk about what you felt in I guess in the waistband of Brian Anderson. |
| Carlson: | It felt like... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | In the mid...in the middle of his back.... TAPE TURNED OFF |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | The tape was mistakenly turned off and we're back on tape. Go ahead. |
| Carlson: | I could be mistaken about that but I... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | It...it felt about the size of this recorder? |
| Carlson: | Yes. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Maybe a little bigger. |
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| Carlson: | I thought that's what it was and that's why I said to him. And he gave her the message because she wrote Fannie a letter and said "I got Ann's message." She said "Tell her not to worry about it because I...we were all under stress." |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Now you. you leave Clearwater and you come back to Texas. Any contact? |
| Carlson: | No contact until.., for a year until just recently Brian Adams...Brian... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Anderson. |
| Carlson: | Anderson... started trying to make contact with Fannie. |
| Agent Feola: | Why is that? Do you know why? |
| Carlson: | We don't know. And then I think probably somebody must have leaked out that maybe an investigation was going on or something. I don't know. Because I think the Attorney General's Office had started an investigation or something. |
| Agent Feola: | So he reinitiated contact with Fannie? |
| Carlson: | Oh...I believe so because the Attorney General called Fannie. So he had prior knowledge of it. |
| Agent Feola: | Does the Medical Examiner perhaps? |
| Carlson: | No. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | State...we have a State Attorney that'd be the same as your Attorney General. |
| Carlson: | Okay. Called Fannie. So if Fannie's phone was bugged, he'd had knowledge of that. So that...I think from that time on, he started trying to get in contact with her. And so every time that he would call when Fannie was in the hospital.... |
| Agent Feola: | Dell would tell him. |
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| Carlson: | Dell would tell him that she's just out..., she's out. "Oh, she's just running around... she's out., she's gone to the store... she'll be back later." And she was always out when he called. But they knew she was in the hospital. And so I thought that was rather strange. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Is there anything that we have not asked you that you think is important that we need...we should know... be aware of? |
| Carlson: | I think that Benetta is an important person to question because she is the ringleader of these girls. She is the pusher of these girls and leads them to the brink. She's the one that led Lisa to the brink and she keeps them thinking that she's their friend all the time...that she's their mother..she's their confidant.., she's their sister.., she's whatever they need. Like this Gloria, she has that young lady thinking that she's everything. And she'd take her down just like Lisa. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. Well, we... |
| Carlson: | And... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | We intend to talk to her. |
| Carlson: | And I think that... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Mrs. Slater... |
| Carlson: | And I think that... |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Mrs. Slaughter...I'm sorry. |
| Carlson: | Slaughter. And I think that she's a dangerous person. |
| Agent Feola: | I've got one question for you. What did you think after you started looking through these bank statements that were in this small box of personal items that you got back? What |
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| people...I just wanted to...you know....get some publicity and do something to them...you know. When you get in their pocketbook, they know. And of course they've got plenty of money and plenty of attorneys. So Ken may be up against a lot bigger task than he thinks. But I thought this...I thought it's better to have him than to have somebody come from Washington because you know how home boys stick together. And somebody from Washington wouldn't get near the treatment that Ken might get from the judges. And like Ken said "Nobody owns a jury." But the problem is gonna be how they're gonna keep Scientology people off the jury. | |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | It may not get to that. They...they may decide to settle it monetary wise. But we're not here for the civil end of it. |
| Carlson: | Yes, I know. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | We're here for the criminal end of it. |
| Carlson: | Yeah, I know. Well, it is criminal. It's criminal what happened. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | Okay. Well, I think.. I don't have anymore questions. Do you? |
| Carlson: | Well, I'm trying to think if there's anything that I could possibly tell you. |
| Agent Feola: | You did very well. |
| Carlson: | But in my mind I felt like that, when a girl weighed 108 pounds, that she had to have been starved to death. I...I said...you know.., they probably...I told Fannie... |
| Agent Feola: | How do you know that... 108...Ann? How did... |
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| Carlson: | Well, that's what the information was' from, the medical...medical records. |
| Agent Feola: | 108 lbs.? |
| Carlson: | 108 lbs. |
| Det. Carrasquillo: | I'm gonna go ahead and..and terminate thisinterview....or conclude this interview. It is now 5:10 Dallas time. |
Ofc. Reporting Det. J. Carrasquillo/elg ID No. 630 Case Status Active Date Cleared _____________ Clearance Type Exception Type 1. Arrest 1. Extradition declined 3. Death of Offender 2. Adult Juvenile 2. AR of primary offense, 4. V/W refused to cooperate 3. Unfounded secondary offense, 5. Prosecution declined w/o prosecution 6. Juv/No Custody Ofc. Reviewing Date SAO Info