Interview with Carol Hawk

Date:February 20, 1997

SF: Today's date is February 19, 1997. It is approximately 1645 hours. Conducting an interview with Carol Hawk. Present is Special Agent Sharon Feola with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Detective George Carrasquilla of the Clearwater Police Department, and we are in X, Texas. Um, Carol, please state your name and your date of birth for the record please.
CH: My name is Carol Kozak Hawk..My date of birth is X
SF: And I don't know if you know, it's law enforcement officers with the State of Florida, we're empowered to take sworn testimony.
CH: Okay.
SF: I'm going to need you to raise your right hand. Do you swear and or affirm that the statement you're about to make is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
CH: I do.
SF: Okay. Carol, how long have you known Lisa?
CH: Since we were girls in Dallas. I lived on the street next to hers.
SF: Okay. Um, what were you? Girlfriends? Schoolfriends?
CH: Schoolfriends. -
SF: All right, and after you both went your separate ways, did you have contact?
CH: Yes, we did.
SF: Okay, so you kept in contact over the years?
CH: Yes. I have.
SF: Okay, um
CH: With certain periods of not keeping in contact. There was a period of time when she was in California, that we were not in contact, and I got back in touch, actually she contacted me, um, right after she got back from California and moved back to Dallas.
SF: She was living with her mom then I understand.

Page 2

CH: I'm not, I don't remember if she was living with her mother at that point. I know she went back to Dallas to be with her mom, but I don't think they lived together very long.
SF: Okay. And then how about contact that you had after that point?
CH: Um, since then we spoke at least a few times a year, sometimes more often, sometimes not, depending on what we were doing, and what was going on.
SF: Okay, did you have any contact with her when she moved to Clearwater?
CH: Yes.
SF: Okay, can you remember the last contact that you had with Lisa, prior to her death?
CH: Um, the last contact that I had with her was at least a few weeks before Thanksgiving, possibly a month before Thanksgiving, just before she died, um, and we spoke by phone.
SF: Okay, and the context of the conversation?
CH: As I remember it, um, Lisa, we had a very brief conversation which was unusual, normally we talked for a long time, and she called and said she had, she was very happy, she had just attested to clear in her Scientology church and she said "I can't say enough about the technology, I wake up every day and it's like I'm going out to play" and told me that her life couldn't have been better. That was that last time we spoke.
SF: Okay. And, over the years, did you and Lisa mutually discuss her involvement in the church?
CH: We did, um, talk about Scientology and shared, she shared books with me periodically, um, we talked about it in terms of other things though, not ever as a really, as a primary focus of the conversation. If I was going through a particular event, you know, she would say, "Well, this is how I would deal with that", or "this is we would say" or just not we would do, but "this is how I would process that or do that".
SF: Okay. Um, do you know when she first got involved in the church? Do you know the circumstances surrounding that?
CH: I have some knowledge of it, not a lot, not the exact details. Um, I left Austin a year before we graduated from high school and moved, I'm sorry, I left

Page 3

Dallas and moved to Austin, and it was after, my understanding is that it was after she graduated that she got involved with the church through someone she worked with had recommended it.
SF: Okay. And then over the years, you said that you discussed her invol
CH: Her involvement?
SF: Yeah.
CH: Yes, we did?
SF: And what do you, do you remember what those conversations consisted of? Like.
CH: Well, um, initially, one of the first conversations that I had with her about Scientology was when she was getting ready to marry Gene, well, actually there was one conversation before that, when she was married to her first husband, um, before their second divorce, actually, I visited with her in Dallas, and she had just gotten into Scientology. She was telling me about the lessons and focusing that she was doing and um, how she was trying to focus her attention and she was going through a process that was supposed to be for purification, where she was doing saunas, and taking lots of vitamins, and doing all of that kind of process, purportedly to remove any toxins or contaminants or, in her physical
SF: Anything in her physical
CH: Yeah, in her physical body. So, that was early on.
JO: Can I get you (inaudible) take us back in time, can you give me a time frame because it could have been 1978, it could have been 1998?
CH: I'll try. I'll try.
JO: Around what time was that that you
SF: If you remember
JO: If you remember
CH: To be honest, I'm not sure exactly when it was I, I don't know when she was married to her first husband, and this was, I believe this was the second that they were married. They were married twice.
JO: Mid eighties? Early nineties?

Page 4

CH: No, it would have been prior to that. We were, we were pretty young, um, it was before she went to California, and she was there for several years.
SF: Right.
CH: This was when she first got into Scientology. We were like twenty, or twenty-one.
SF: This would have been sixteen, seventeen years ago.
CH: Right. This would have been the very first, because that's the first time in process
JO: 1980? Early eighties?
CH: Yeah, could have been early eighties, or 1980.
JO: Just so we have an idea so when we (inaudible) that contact was in the late seventies or early eighties.
CH: Correct. And at that point, nobody else that she knew of with the exception of the woman that she worked with, as far as I know, uh, was involved in Scientology. Her husband certainly was not at that time, and her family was not aware of what, what Scientology was or anything, and to be honest, I'm not sure Lisa did either. At that point, she was very young, and she was very excited about the process of learning about it, and feeling like she was doing something for herself.
SF: Positive for her
CH: Very positive.
SF: Okay. And just, just, you just reminded me something, Carol, she had kind of a rocky childhood, you understand her brother committed suicide and I think her father, did her father commit suicide as well?
CH: He did.
SF: Do you what hap, what that was about?
CH: Um, Lisa and I were very good friends during junior high and her brother committed suicide the year that we were in ninth grade, which would have been, I think, the 73-74 school year, and uh, I don't know the exact circumstances around

Page 5

SF: Was her father alive then?
CH: Yes, he was.
SF: Okay.
CH: And I know it was a very hard time for her parents and also for Lisa, for all of us. He was precious, he was a wonderful young man, and it was a really big loss. Um, her father's death was later. It was after Lisa was back in Dallas and I don't really know what happened with that.
SF: Okay, but it was sometime later?
CH: Yeah, it was several years later, many years later.
SF: Let me ask you this, and, because we've had some, was her mother an alcoholic?
CH: Her parents were both alcoholics. When I became friends with Lisa, when we girls, her parents, neither of her parents drank at that point. They were both recovering alcoholics, as a matter of fact, we used to go to AA parties. I went with her. This is when we were adolescents, um, probably seventh, eighth grade, and her parents at that point were really fun to be around and they still liked to go out and dance and play, but they were not drinking at that time. Although, I know that they did have, she had a lot of problems with that when she was younger.
SF: Lisa had problems with drinking?
CH: No, with her parent's drinking.
SF: Oh, okay, just for a little, just so we can get a flavor for, you know. All right, I don't mean to interrupt, but then, now we're into the early eighties, she's into the Scientology thing, and she sometimes explain to you where she is in this whole process of the church of Scientology, did you understand it to be a process?
CH: Yeah, um, I think so. I hadn't read anything about Scientology at that point, so the only thing I knew about it then was what she told me, and what she was talking about were basically exercises and lessons, and they all sounded very positive, and I know that she felt that they were.
SF: And did she go to these, were they classes, or at somebody's house?

Page 6

CH: No, I don't think so, or, of course I'm not exactly sure. I think there was a center in Dallas, and I think, it was a place where she went and yeah, I think it was more like classes.
SF: And did they have an instructor, or something of that nature? You don't know? Okay, all right, so then what do you recaII after that point? Any contact?
CH: Urn, I don't remember how much contact we had over the next few years um, but I do remember the next thing that I ,that had to do with Scientology, was after she divorced her first husband the second time, and they had had a real rocky time. He was difficult, as a matter of fact, I think at one point he tried to kill her.
JO: Abusive?
CH: He was very abusive, and uh, yeah, I think he literally tried to kill her and that's when she decided to divorce him, so it may have been after they separated, to be honest, I'm not sure on that but she was engaged to Gene, and they were in Dallas and I, I went to Dallas and I met with, as a matter of fact, we went to see a film, and we went to dinner, and I had very little knowledge, probably a little bit more at that time, I don't remember if I had heard of Dianetics, the book, or if I had read the first part of it at that point, but I was aware of it more and what he explained to me was that Scientology was a process through which all of the things that had happened in your life and later, you know, you find out, past lives as well, had a tendency to make you overreact to things, in other words, what happened in the current would trigger all of these occurrences that were similar
JO: Past emotions?
CH: Past emotions, and that, and that was a problem, and so the idea with it then would be to go through these auditing sessions, which is what she, or they, referred to them as, and so one of the counselors, or auditors I guess, would take you back through each of the occurrences of these, whatever, events, and when you got to the root event, you could clear it away. You would retain it as a memory, but you wouldn't have, it wouldn't have the emotional charge, therefore, you get to a situation where you're reacting to the current situation only, and not reactivity to this, whatever the old stuff was.
SF: As you are a culmination of all your experiences. They're saying that that's why you react certain ways.
CH: Well, what they're saying is that um, as I understand it today, I don't know how much I understood at the time, but, what I believe they're saying is that we can have an event that happens early in our !ife that is traumatic or somehow is

Page 7

not just something that passes and we internalize it literally, and so if you can get back to the root of that, to the original problem, than you can discharge it of it's emotional, you know, power.
JO: You could clear yourself of this influence, that's what they call it
CH: Not the knowledge of it, but the charge involved, and it no longer affects your current
JO: And they're (inaudible) from what you're telling me, correct me if I'm wrong, that they would also digress into your past lives to clear problems
CH: Yeah, I had really, at that point in time, when we were talking about it, that wasn't a subject, that came up much later in conversation between Lisa and I. My concern at the time, which I voiced, was I said, "well, who are these people who are doing this?" "who are these auditors?", right, there are trained auditors inside Scientology, they're not psychologists, they're not doctors, and because we, we had a lot of events in our life, and in our earlier lives that were difficult, I said, "well, so what happens if you put this away, because it was just too much to deal with, so what happens if you're in this auditing session and this person who has no, as far I was concerned, formal training, gets you to a place that you can't handle, I mean,
SF: Emotional
CH: Our brains protect us, right, from things, and so I said, "so what happens?" "well, we know how to handle that, we know how to deal with that, we know exactly the right questions to ask to get you there, and out safely, and whatever".
SF: Was Lisa ever an auditor?
CH: I don't believe so, although I'm not sure about that. I know there was a time in Dallas when she was working at the mission, and uh, or church, and I remember her mother commenting to me that Lisa thought she was a great counselor. Now, I don't know whether she was an, um, you know, someone up front that she was, you know, more in a position of telling people about the process and the good parts of it or whether she was actually was actually doing auditing. I don't believe she ever did any auditing.
SF: Okay. And the people that did the auditing, it's your understanding from what Lisa told you, is that those are people that are specifically trained by Scientologists to take you to this station of clear.
CH: That is correct.

Page 8

SF: Okay.
CH: And that was the goal of the process.
SF: To be clear.
CH: Right.
SF: And once you obtained that, what else was there?
CH: I don't know.
SF: Doyouknowwhatlmean?
CH: Well, the idea then would be that once you're clear, you, it's not that you're finished, you're finished with
SF: The past
CH: The past, and you're current, in the moment, in the present.
SF: Okay. So you routinely had discussions with her about her involvement in the church?
CH: Yes.
SF: Is there any other, anything, outstanding of any conversations that you had with her, um, Carol, that you recall?
CH: About the technology
SF: Yeah.
CH: of the church?
SF: Yeah. Specifically.
CH: Urn, no. There were lots of conversations that we had just regarding what was right and what was wrong, you know she was very involved in, very, it was very important to her to be doing the right thing, you know, I remember having a conversation about, oh, she didn't come to my wedding when I got married, and she said, "well, the reason that I didn't come to your wedding was because I had, you know, done, I had done something to you", I think it had something to do with some silly boy, or something, I don't remember exactly, but uh, and she says, "so I felt bad about that and that caused me not to do what I normally

Page 9

would have done and so, now I'm aware of that and I can tell you that I'm sorry for that and we can go on and we're not caught up in it". You know, it was that kind of thing where she would say, "well, for you know, for what we do, I would handle this situation this way or that way" or, but nothing about the technology itself that was dramatic that comes to mind.
SF: Okay.
CH: Other than, there is one thing. When she went to Florida, she had been um, okay, this is my understanding of what happened over time. When Lisa went to California, she had made some kind of contract with Scientology to be there forever, or for the rest of her, this life, or whatever.
SF: Do you, do you know, do you understand that, or do you,
CH: With the billion year contract thing?
SF: Will you, did she explain that to you?
CH: No, she did not. No, that's something that I heard about and read about actually in the last year.
SF: But, did she ever say she signed a contract?
CH: Yes. She told me, "I signed an agreement or I signed a contract that I would go to California and I would stay there" and my understanding at the time was that she would dedicate her life to the organization, specifically.
JO: Carol, first you say she went to Olearwater
CH: No, no, no. To California.
JO: To Oalifornia. Okay, Oalifornia.
CH: I'm speaking of California.
SF: Okay. When she left for California, that was the goal.
CH: Right, and what happened with that situation was that she was married to Gene at the time and they were living in Dallas and he told her, this is what Lisa told me, that he had told her he was going there for some training. Training or auditing, or something, I don't remember. For some particular reason, that was of a short term duration. Well, once he was there, he explained to her that he had this agreement to be there forever and that, you know, I don't know what he expected her to do at that point. He basically left her in Dallas and so, what she

Page 10

did, basically, sold everything she owned in Dallas and followed him to California and signed up.
SF: Same thing.
CH: The same thing.
SF: I'll be with, I'll be a member of the church
CH: Well, she was already a member of the church, but I think it was to actually work at the organization, rather than having a separate, I mean as far as I know, with, and I'm not clear entirely about that time in California, she has always had a separate job, or multiple jobs. She was a very hard worker, and um, that was something that she did with the rest of her time, but I don't know what happened in California, but that's the impression I got, was that it was a different level of commitment that she had made. When she got there and realized that regardless of what they were doing there their relationship was not gonna work. She had to come back, she left there and came back to Dallas, and that was after awhile. She had been there for awhile and at that point, um, that's when we re-connected and that was like in the 89 time frame. I have a letter from her in 89. It says, you know, "I'm so glad I got back in touch with you", and whatever, so I'm pretty comfortable with that time frame. Now, I do know that that was also a very difficult time for her because, because she had left California and whatever agreement she had made which they, the church considered a problem, or like a sin against the church, or whatever.
SF: Because she made a commitment to stay in California, and she didn't.
CH: And didn't. She was excluded from auditing for a period of time. She couldn't go and make use of them as a resource that she was very used to, and it was a very fragile and vulnerable time for her.
JO: So, are you saying they basically kicked her out?
CH: Yes. For a period of time;
JO: Do you know if she was still making donations during that time.
CH: I don't know at all. I know that she had to make amends, that she had to make reparation, or whatever, to them, for the harm she had done them by not
SF: Like a confession type of thing.
CH: Like penance.

Page 11

JO: Do you know how she made amends?
CH: No; I don't know. I know that when she came back to Dallas she was totally broke, she was working three jobs, at like a pizza place, and a cleaners, and somewhere else, trying to make enough money to pay off a debt, and I don't know if that was to the church, or what.
SF: Do you know um, Carol, if around that time, is when she claimed bankruptcy?
CH: It's very possible. I don't know. It's very possible.
SF: So, now she's back in Dallas. She's made contact with you, she's basically made a bad move with
CH: Adrift
SF: with the church. Adrift in her job, and in her whole personal life. Her mother is failing, I understand her mother's sick.
CH: Right.
SF: Her father is now dead.
CH: Right.
JO: Let me ask you this if I may. I think you gingerly going around it at the very beginning, so as I got a clear picture. Was Lisa hanging onto the church because maybe she came from a dysfunctional family, and that was the source of
SF: Was that like her touch stone, you know, like a stabilizing force for her?
CH: I think it was very stabilizing for her. It was her source of stability. SF:. And you made a comment to me last night on the phone that she totally believed in the church
CH: Absolutely. Absolutely.
SF: And it's workings.
CH: Yes.

Page 12

JO: So there was no support basically at home because of all the dysfunction that was going on but there was support over here for her to at least function (inaudible) Is that what I'm hearing?
CH: I think that Lisa felt that the church was her strength. That they were, or the organization, or whatever, you know she got a lot of success there. She had a lot of success. She felt stronger, she felt like what she was doing was making, her stronger, better,
SF: Making a difference to the world.
CH: Absolutely. Certainly, certainly in her life. You know whether there were any larger concepts of doing wonderful things for the world, um, I don't know at that time, but I know that she felt very strongly that it was what was going to make her whole.
JO: So it was working for her?
CH: Absolutely. She was very confident, she gaining, well, at different times. When she got back in the church, after what, I don't remember if it was six months or a year, or whatever that she was out. There was some period of time that she was out of the church and after that, when she got back in, you know, she really gained a lot of confidence, she was happy to be back, she was happy to be in it, um, and I know she that it was the right thing for her to be doing.
JO: Let me ask you this. When she got back into the church, and they accepted her, she was working for them again. Was she working long hours, long days?
CH: I don't know. Since I don't live in Dallas, I don't remember. I know that the first job I remember her having um, that was very successful. She worked, she worked for a company that sold commercial property that was run by Scientologist in the Dallas area I believe.
SF: Do you remember the name of the company?
CH: No, I don't, but it was a, they sold commercial property. I remember talking to her at that time. She started, she had left the phone company which she had gone back to, I think when she went back to Dallas, which is where she had worked before, cause I remember her saying "I got my seniority back, I wasn't gone" or something like that, and I may be confusing the times, you'll have to pardon me for that.
SF: I understand.

Page 13

CH: Yeah, so she started working for this company and she, they allowed her to do more and more, and pretty soon she was getting really big bonuses and I think that's when she really started making a lot of money. I know that uh, when, at some point before, she was making a lot of money, because she said that when she went bankrupt she had to give up her Porsche, and she missed her car phone and laughed, you know, and so, she was certainly doing well financially.
SF: Did she ever discuss with you, and I know that Detective 0 is is going to, we're gonna go over her financial, a little bit later, but did she ever discuss with you the amount of money that she had to contribute in order to obtain these auditing sessions, and various stages that she was progressing through the
CH: No, we never talked about the stages she was progressing through, per Se, and as far as the money, the only comment I remember her making um, early on was when she was living with Gene in Dallas, her mother was really giving her a lot of grief about the church at, by that time, her mother really thought that it was a bad thing and she was very concerned about Lisa and you know, it was a real issue of concern and I remember Lisa saying UI don't know what her problem is with it", she said, "you know, I have everything that I need, I just bought a rainbow," which is a, like at that time, about a $700 vacuum, and she said, "we do everything we want to do, and we have plenty, so I don't know what mother's problem is".
SF: So all this extra money, who cares where it goes? Is that basically the impression? Like they're living good so,
CH: She didn't, yeah, she basically said, "we're living very well, and so, I don't understand what the problem is with it". The only other thing I remember her telling me was at one point, and I don't remember exactly when, she said "I gave ten percent of my income to the church last year, and as far as I'm concerned, that's", and she said, "that's no more than anyone else tithes, so what's the problem?", but in my mind, I'm not sure if she meant that she tithed ten percent over and above her courses that she was paying for, or not.
SF: Or maybe that was just a blanket statement she made.
CH: I don't know.
SF: Okay. This is going to be the end of side one.
SF: Okay. Um, the last conversation that you had with Lisa, you said was sometime before Thanksgiving, a couple weeks before Thanksgiving was real short, and she was happy, everything was okay.

Page 14

CH: Everything was wonderful..
SF: In, routinely, when had conversations prior to that, you'd discuss what? Work? Home? Boyfriends?
CH: Right, right. We, would've, what any friends talk about. Our lives, more our lives than the technology or you know, what the tech, you know, we didn't really talk about that by itself usually it was more in terms of, well, this is how I would deal with that, or that's funny that you did that that way because that's exactly how we would have done it, or whatever.
SF: Okay, and then I know that last night you mentioned to me, Carol, something to me about her verbiage had changed during different stages of
CH: Oh, her vocabulary?
SF: Yeah, can you explain that to us?
CH: Yeah. Um, there was a period of time after Lisa got into Scientology, and I think it was, it wasn't right at first, but I know one of the things that she told me when she first got in was that she was, they did vocabulary building lessons, I mean, you know, it made her feel very good, it made her feel smart, but we went through a period of time, and I can't pinpoint it exactly, but it was pretty early on where she was really into this strange speech, you know, it would be, she was using all this vocabulary that nobody would know, you know, and so it made it, it got to the point where we weren't really communicating because you are just kind of looking at her thinking, what are you talking about?
SF: What did you think about that?
CH: I thought it was very odd.
SF: What crossed your mind when, I mean if you're talking to a girlfriend and they're talking about (inaudible), you don't know what they're talking about, what do you, I mean,
CH: Well, what I thought of it as, was something that made her feel special, something that made her feel really smart, and that for whatever reason, she needed to do that right then, I mean, I don't know, we never, to be honest, I don't think we ever discussed that directly, but what I remember thinking was ,you're being weird, why are you doing that, and, and it passed.
SF: Okay. What about her personality. Did you ever notice any personality changes over the years?

Page 15

CH: Urn, Lisa was always very outgoing and very cheerful, always had a smile on her face, and um,
SF: Well, that was in front of the camera. Do you know, I mean, was she like that all the time?
CH: Pretty much. I mean, she wasn't, you know she went through a lot of hard times as a youngster and um, the only time as adults that, I mean, although we had sad times and we talked about that, but I don't think it was anything unreasonable or anything that wasn't normal. The only time that I really saw her very fragile was uhi, when she came home from California and she was excluded from auditing and she was a wreck. She was totally beside herself.
SF: And the last conversation that you had with her in November, she in no way mentioned to you leaving Clearwater ,or
CH: No, she didn't. Um, a previous conversation that we had had, just add some information there, in a previous conversation that we had while she was in Clearwater, she told me a few things about Clearwater right after she got there and after she had been there for awhile. When she first got there, she was um, really into it, you know, she said, "this is amazing the auditing that's here is a whole different level, it's a whole different thing going on, I'm really making some breakthroughs", and she was very excited and she was, she was moving in circles with people that she believed were real movers and shakers, you know, they were people who had lots of money, it was a very um, international crowd, there were people that she talked about
SF: Were they members of the church?
CH: Oh, absolutely.
SF: Is that who you're referring to?
CH: Oh yeah.
SF: Okay.
CH: Yeah. The only people she really associated with, as far as I know, were people in the church.
SF: Other than some of her old girlfriends, like on occasion she'd call you,
CH: Me, maybe
SF: Or Kelly once in awhile.

Page 16

CH: I don't think that, I don't know how much contact she kept with our friend, our other friends, um, she may have, certainly in the early days we still tried to connect, and do, but um, you know, especially when she went through some weird stuff earlier on, like the language and all that stuff. I think that people thought it was a little odd.
SF: Okay, so
JO: You'd gone, um, pretty much from high school and you went up to 89 side one, and then you covered some of Dallas, can you concentrate a little bit from, I know she moved in December of 93 and beginning of 94 to Olearwater. Can you cover that time period for us, from 94 to the time she expired in, what,
SF: Yeah, I think she was just there about the movers and shakers and all
CH: Yeah, shewas
JO: What kind of conversations did she have on the phone, and did she happen to call you and tell you about her B and E trials, or breaking into her apartment?
CH: Yes, yeah, we talked about that.
JO: Can you tell me a little bit about that? Start with the beginning of 94 if you will.
CH: Okay. Um, I talked with her right after she got there, and she gave me her address, and whatever, although I can't find it, but anyway, she was realty excited about the auditing, that it was a whole different level, I mentioned that, and the people, she was very excited, she said, "you know I'm just a little girl from Dallas and I'm going out with these people who are really, I don't know, she was very excited, it was very exciting for her and she was having a great time, um, the other stuff that I remember talking about as far as Oleaiwater goes, is um, later, I remember her saying that the work was much harder there. Her work, her job, um, her whole company had moved there to go to new training and auditing and whatever.
SF: They closed
CH: That was the publishing company
SF: They closed
CH: Closes in Dallas and the whole group of them moved to, see, she had her support group shifted there and that's everything, all her, um,

Page 17

SF: Work and personal
CH: And it was very much, well, it was very much intertwined, because the same people that she was working with all day, were people that were there, you know and obviously in Clearwater, that she was going to sessions with, or, I mean I don't know technically how it works, but, but, yeah. They were all the same folks. I do remember her telling me that um, work had gotten much more difficult, that in Dallas all she really had to do was answer the phone and you know, it was very, it was very much easier and flowed a lot better for her. She said, "now l'm actually having to do my job, I'm having to answer objections and really sell and it's amazing, how much different it is, how much harder it is". I think that, certainly at the beginning, she felt like she was capable of doing it though, I mean, she said, "you know I'm learning, I'm going to be able to do this, this is great," and whatever.
SF: And how about any other conversations after that?
CH: Urn, I do remember her telling me about when her apartment was broken into, and she said all of her possessions were stolen, and it was interesting because she, she was having a relationship with a man, I don't know what his name was, and um, she kind of talked about it in terms of that, that she felt like whatever was going on was kind of weird, or wasn't, she wasn't, they weren't doing the right thing, or they weren't in sync with the world, or whatever, and that's why this bad thing happened.
JO: Was it Kurt?
CH: I don't know.
JO: Was it Kurt?
CH: I don't remember.
JO: Did she tell you who, did she have any suspects, (inaudible) have any idea as to who might have broken into her place?
CH: No, I don't remember her mentioning that. I do remember when she said that um, I guess through insurance she got everything back or else she got the stolen stuff back, I don't know. I remember her saying that she had all her stuff back in place.
JO: One more thing Carol, while we're on the topic, um, you mentioned that just prior to the burglary, you were mentioning that Lisa had to start, was more difficult to do the job, did you notice a change in the, vocally, personality,

Page 18

CH: She was more stressed. She exhibited more stress in our conversations.
JO: When did you notice that change? 94, middle of 94, you know, beginning of 95?
CH: It was sometime in the year before her death.
JO: So, about one year before her death? Did you notice a change in her personality or a lot more stress?
CH: Well, during, just in that conversation certainly. I don't know if it was throughout because, my general impression was that she was working through a lot of stuff. It was harder, but that she was doing it.
JO: Did she say how much time she was at work actually working?
CH: No, I don't remember that.
SF: How about any conversations, Carol, that you had prior to your last conversation with her. Do you remember when that was? Or a letter perhaps?
CH: Urn, I found some letters, what'd I do, that, just a couple, one from when she first moved back to Dallas, and one that she sent me, um, from St. Petersburg in February of 94.
SF: That's when she was living in Coachman.
CH: Yeah, this is here, and this didn't say anything, it was just, it was just, an I'm glad you're my friend letter, you know. This letter that I found when she was in Dallas was when she had just moved back, this is October of 89, and um, she was talking about how difficult her life was with her mom. Um, these are really the only letters I had from her. We usually corresponded by phone.
SF: Right, or Christmas cards, maybe, or something like that?
CH: No, I would've had the cards, I would've had the cards, so, a lot of times what would happen is, I would be going to Dallas, and I'd call and, either call her at her office, this is when she was at the publishing company there, or else, if I didn't know where she was, I'd call her mom and get her number, because her mom still lived on the street over from my mother.
JO: Did you know the location of the publishing office when it was down here?
CH: When it was in Dallas?

Page 19

JC: Yeah, when it was in Dallas.
CH: I probably have it in my office, unless I deleted it.
SF: Would you recognize the street name, perhaps?
CH: Perhaps.
JO: Where do you think it was at?
CH: Wasn't it on Gadsen?
SF: That's it.
CH: Yeah.
SF: Have you ever been there?
CH: No.
SF: Okay.
CH: I had only spoken with her by phone there, but, I have the address if you need the actual address there.
SF: We just, I just wanted to verify that that was were it was located. Um, it's 1603 Gadsen Avenue. Does that sound
CH: Sounds familiar. Sounds right. I have it in my address book at work, as a matter of fact, I think she used that as a permanent address. She, because at one point, she was, I think she was moving around a lot, and she said, "well, if you need to send me anything, send it here, cause this is", I can use that.
SF: Okay. Um, how about, now we know that when she worked for the AMO Publishing in Dallas that that was a Scientology
CH: Yeah
SF: run business. Do you know of any other businesses that she worked in in Dallas that were either Scientology owned or associated with a member that
CH: The company that she worked for before she went to work f6r the publishing
SF: Was it a mortgage company?

Page 20

CH: Yeah, they sold, as far as I know, they did. Somehow they worked with commercial property. I thought it was a sales organization, but it could have just, I don't know.
SF: Okay, how about a dentist? Do you recall her working for a dentist ever?
CH: I don't remember.
SF: Okay. Now, let's get on to this AMC Publishing. Did you ever meet anyone that she worked with?
CH: No.
SF: Never met any of them?
CH: No, well, I did after she died. And that
SF: Okay, but this is during, while she worked there
CH: During the time that she was there
SF: In Clearwater
CH: No, I really didn't have any, any contact with any of those people.
SF: Okay. Did she ever talk about them?
CH: She talked about her work environment. I remember her saying it was a big game. I know that she felt like these people were her family, I mean, she really did. She had found a family in them, and that they were, um, I remember talking about her stats, her statistics, you know, up and out, everything has to be charted, and everything has to be up and out all the time, and that's what she did, and if she was down in her stats, then it was an issue, and she had to go get some auditing for it so she could figure out what was the problem.
SF: I want you to repeat that. In her business,
CH: Right.
SF: She referred to what, her stats as her income or her
CH: They were,
SF: or contracts,or .

Page 21

CH: Well, it was whatever she was because, I, and I'm in sales. I sell computer equipment and software, and I, you know, periodically, at least at some point, we were talking about sales and she was saying, "yeah", that they kept statistics of everything, I mean, you know, how many calls, how many completed calls, how many sales, how many everything, and everything was charted, and if she, you know, if her stats were down, took a downward curve, then she would have to go and get help with it, and to her that meant, getting auditing.
SF: Okay. So the work was not separate from the Scientology?
CH: Well, Scientology was her life. I don't think there was anything that was separate from Scientology that she did.
SF: Okay, but if her work performance was poor,
CH: Then she went to get help, she went to get auditing. There was something going on that she needed to figure out what was going on and she
SF: Causing her not to be productive at work.
CH: Exactly. Okay. Do you have any questions about this.
JO: Yeah, I got some that I wanted to ask. Do you know how many jobs Lisa had over the years?
CH: No. A lot.
SF: About as many apartments she had, I think.
CH: I know that she worked for the phone company right out of high school, and she did welIthere. She was very competitive.
JO: When you say well, how much money is well?
CH: Oh, I don't know. Certainly not, I mean, not millions of dollars or anything, but when I said she did well, I wasn't thinking in terms of her money. I was thinking in terms of her progress. She was well thought of, or she felt like she was anyway, that would be what I would have known about and um, they were competitive. Even at the phone company, which was kind of strange to me. They had these weird competitions about, you know, who could sell extra services to people and if you were the worst team, they threw pies at you or something. I remember being totally amazed that anybody would work in that environment, but she did it there, and then when, in her subsequent jobs later on, it seemed like there was a lot of that going on, really

Page 22

JO: So, she was basically always in sales?
CH: Yeah, basically.
JO: Okay, and earlier you said that she started making big money
CH: Yeah.
JO: You want to elaborate a little bit about that?
CH: Well, the only thing I know, knew at that time, certainly was that money in terms of enough money to, you know, have a Porsche and a car phone, and whatever. I don't um, I didn't really have a figure to
JO: In your phone conversations, did she ever tell you how much she was making?
CH: Urn, I don't remember specifically talking about it, you know, talking about it directly, I don't remember her ever saying, "I made so much money". I do remember one of our conversations after she was in Clearwater, when we were talking about money, and she was really irritated with Clinton, because they was, or some, something going on politically where he had said that anybody who made more than $ 150,000 or $115,000 a year was in a different, you know, they were going to tax them differently, and she was just furious about it. She said, "can you believe that, that we, you know, that we're in a status where we should get taxed more," da, da, da, da, da,
SF: Which gave you an indication that she was making
CH: That she was making over that, over, you know, a hundred, over a hundred and fifteen, or whatever the number was at the time. ?? You've been in sales for how many years, you said
CH: Well, I've been with my company, this is my eighteenth year.
JO: To your knowledge, do you know people in sales who make over $140,00?
CH: I think it's certainly possible, um, I was, surprised that she was making that much money, not because of her capabilities, but because of what she was selling.
JO: The product.

Page 23

CH: Right. Which as far as I understood it was um, advertising packets for insurance agents. ?? Did she ever tell you, or did you ever discuss with her how much
CH: She had to sell?
JO: Donated back
CH: Oh, no.
JC: Donated back to the church. I mean she was at ten percent income, and you wasn't sure if that was in addition to her classes, but did she ever talk to you about actually giving donations to the church, besides the ten percent?
CH: Not that I remember. Remember that we really didn't, we talked about the church only in terms of our lives
JO: Right.
CH: It wasn't like I was asking her about exactly what happened, although I did ask her about auditing and we did talk about um, ethics and things like that, and, and those areas, you know, we discussed more of it but not about, we certainly didn't talk about
JO: So you didn't get into, you know, great conversations about her income, or financial status
CH: No, no.
JO: You were assuming she was making big bucks because of the Porsche and the phone and the situation with Clinton.
CH: Yeah, just comments.
JO: Did you have a question?
SF: Yeah, it was different Jorge, it was, not, you were asking about urn,
JO: The donations?
SF: Yeah. Why did that surprise you that because of the, and it surprised me too, that the product that she was selling, a paper product per se, you'd have to sell quite a bit of those to earn that commission. Wouldn't you?

Page 24

CH: Yeah.
SF: I mean, I know people that sell thousands and thousands of dollars of computers that don't, do you know, what do you think about that Carol?
CH: I don't know. I thought it was surprising, and I really didn't think about it critically until after she died, and then I thought, well, this is pretty interesting. There must have been some kind of money thing going on. I don't know. To be honest, I just don't know.
JO: What'd you mean by money thing?
CH: Well, I just don't know. You know, an organization, I don't know what the organization was doing were they would have made that much money. You can certainly make a lot of money in advertising, and I know that they really paid her well, but the perception I have at this point is that, well, they may have paid her well, but they knew it was all going back into the church anyway.
JO: Did she ever tell you about the gang, that they gang also gets paid well? Being her fellow employees?
SF: Or was she the lead?
CH: No, I don't think, I know that she, I remember a conversation where somebody that um, and this was when they in Dallas, the company was in Dallas. Somebody tried to hire her, and it was great fun for her because um, she met them, she met them for dinner or something, and they tried to offer her a job, and she laughed and said, "well, I'm really well compensated, and there's no way you could ever touch it" and at that point, I think, you know, she was probably making $100,00 a year at that point.
SF: And this was some, but maybe someone that she had met?
CH: Someone through work, someone who she had contacted, who had a sales organization, and they said they really thought she was really good, and that she would be a good asset to them.
SF: Let me ask you this Carol, and I'm asking you, and some of these questions are your opinion, but you obviously were friends with her.'
CH: Clearly, yeah.
SF: Do you think that it would have been possible for her to go and work somewhere else? Non-Scientology related?

Page 25

CH: I doubt it. I don't know that she would have wanted to at that point, you know, the idea being that, let's say that you have a sales organization, and you do sales a certain way, if, I want to say two things. First, why would you want to go work somewhere else, where they didn't do it the way you knew to do it, and second of all, I do know that they had non-Scientology people working with them in Dallas, because she said, I remember talking to her about it, and she said, "if someone can come in and learn how we do our work, they don't have to be a Scientologist, but they would absolutely have to do it the way we do it, period.
JO: And getting back to the original question, did she ever tell you how much the gang was making, and if she was making equivalent money OH:No
JO: Equivalent money across the board
CH: My, if I were to guess, I would say that I think they all did well. I don't think she was the Lone Ranger doing well. I think everybody did well. If they didn't do well, they were gone, you know, it either worked or it didn't, and if it didn't, you were gone.
JO: I don't have anything else.
SF: No more questions? I don't have any more questions either. Do you have anything else that you think is important, Carol, that maybe perhaps, we didn't ask you?
CH: No, I don't think so. I don't think that I have anything else to add.
JO: Oh, there is one more thing. Obviously, you heard about the autopsy, because it was public information. What do you think about her deteriorating so rapidly from being healthy and two weeks later dying? Did you have any discussion with Fanny about that? Fanny being her mother, or Dell, or
CH: I was really shocked when I saw her body at the funeral. She was very thin. However, she had lost weight before the last two weeks um, Lisa was always healthy. She was always very active, and she was very much concerned with her appearance and how she looked.
SF: If she was ill, would she be the type to go see a physician?
CH: Yes, and, but she did. See, she, one of the big things that she did, was you know, she went to, she had a, I don't know if he was a medical doctor, or whatever, but she, I was going to say herbalist, but that's probably not the right term. You know, she had people that she went to get all of her vitamins, and

Page 26

everything, on a regular basis. That was part of her regime, was to do that, and I think they were all in Scientology as well, I mean they were certainly affiliated, but, um, she definitely would have gone to someone if she were ill. Now, I saw pictures of her during her ceremony after she attested to clear, and she was very thin, I don't remember seeing her that thin. She was very thin, I don't remember seeing her that thin, but that goes along with, this whole international jet-set thing going on in Clearwater because our, Lisa told me that when she was in Dallas, they were very casual. She went into work with her hair in a ponytail on top of her head, in her jogging shorts, and a tee-shirt, and tennis shoes, and never thought. When they made the move to Clearwater, all of a sudden, it was very different. She said, "you know", I remember her telling me when she first bought her furniture, she said, "you know, I went out and bought myself nice furniture, but I guess I'm just getting to the point where I think I deserve it." You know, I've been able to, but I never have done it", you know, "and now, and I wouldn't anymore go out of the house without my makeup done and my hair perfect and my clothes perfect, then anything". There was a real change, and I don't know whether it was motivated, just because we were older and she wanted to, she was with a different crowd of people that were perhaps more cosmopolitan and therefore it became an issue, or whether she was just coming into her own it that role, I don't know, but I know that was a big change when she moved there. A lot more status stuff going on. Lisa had never really been concerned with status, as far as I knew, you know we were always just girls from home, regardless, but I think that that was a whole different feel to it, and quite honestly, I think she had a fun time with it, you know, she um, would, she was going and doing, I don't know if she was doing conventions, or whether she was going to conferences, or what, she was jetting around a lot, and she was um, you know, going on vacations and doing things that, it was just, for all practical purposes it was a good life. She was having a good time, um, so I was really shocked that it could end so abruptly and so badly.
SF: Any other questions George? JO I don't think so.
SF: Okay, this will conclude, the interview with Carol Hawk. It is approximately 1730 hours.
SF: Um, this is going to resume the interview with Carol Hawk. It's approximately 1735 hours. I forgot to ask, um, Carol, if she had an occasion to ever speak with Benetta, or
CH: I spoke with she and also with her husband at one point, um, when I found out that Lisa had died, which was apparently a few days after her death, um, I called her mother in Dallas and I asked for the number there. I was trying to find out what had happened, um, because Lisa's mother had sketchy information,

Page 27

and I wanted to go directly there and find out. She gave me Benetta's number and I'm sorry, I don't know her last name, but she was Lisa's manager and also her best friend there, as far as I know.
JO: And owner of the company?
CH: And owner of the company.
JO: Slaughter?
SF: Slaughter. Yeah, Slaughter.
CH: So, I called her house and she was out, and I spoke with her husband and he didn't really have a whole lot of information. He basically, and Benetta did later, told me ,that they really didn't know what had happened, and um, they were waiting to hear from the doctor. So, I went to Dallas, actually, I think before I went to Dallas, I also asked Lisa's mother for the doctor's name and I placed a call to, is it Minkoff?
SF: Uh huh.
CH: Is that his name? Who never returned my call. I couldn't get any information there, um, then with the services I went to Dallas and I talked with Lisa's mother and um, she was really confused, she said, "oh they're everywhere, they won't leave me alone". She was talking about the people from Clearwater and the Scientologists there, when we went to the viewing, um, I went with Kelly Holliday and Sherrie Moore, who was another girlfriend of ours, and um, I found out that Benetta was there and I went up to her and said, " I'm Carol" and she burst into tears and was all mournful and sad and um, and I said, "what happened?" She said, "we just don't know, she just got sick, and we just don't know" and you know, she wasn't, she didn't give me any additional information, just that Lisa had gotten ill very quickly and then died. One other thing I remember that her mother told me, which I thought was interesting, was that Benetta or, it must have been Benetta from Clearwater, had told her that they had taken Lisa after she had her car accident, which I found out after her death, and after the funeral and all that stuff, to a place where they watch babies in the church, and later as I was reading, I found out that there name for, where they put people away who are trying to leave is "baby watch" and I was totally offended that they would use that that way, almost like it was funny.
SF: You need to repeat that.
JC: Yeah, who, that was told to
CH: Fanny McPherson

Page 28

JO: By whom?
CH: Well, I don't know, I believe it was Benetta.
JC: And then Fanny McPherson gave that to
CH: To me. She told me, what Fanny told me was, that they had taken Lisa to a room in the church were they watch babies if they were sick, you know, and then when later in my, you know, looking for answers and some of the reading and different things that I've done, found out that that's where they put people who are trying to leave, and they call it "baby watch". I was really offended.
JO: Did you know baby watch. What's done at that time?
CH: I'm familiar with introspection rundown at this point. I wasn't certainly before, and I've read about it.
JO: Do you think that's what happened to
CH: Absolutely, absolutely.
SF: Why would you think that Carol, because, you know, your last conversation with Lisa was, everything was great, I'm having a great time,
CH: Well, ,
SF: I'm living my life, I like this jet-set,
CH: Right
SF: I'm clear.
CH: Yeah, should have been good, huh. Um, I think that in part because at the funeral, I talked with, as I said, I was with Kelly and Carla Davis and Kelly told me, "you know, Lisa called me and told me that she was leaving Florida."
SF: Kelly told you that at the funeral?
CH: Yes.
SF: That she had received this phone call.
CH: A call several weeks earlier, which is approximately, you know, I don't have the phone, I mean access to her phone records, but from what we could tell, it

Page 29

was within, it may have even been the same evening, it may have within a few days, but apparently right after she talked.with me, or you know, as I said, I don't know exactly, something had occurred, or she came to some decision, and she called Kelly and told her, "I'm leaving," you know, "I want to leave Clearwater, I want to come back to Dallas and I want to resume friendships, I want to be back in touch with my friends, will you be my friend if I come there" kind of thing, and I was really shocked. I remember standing there with Kelly, and it's like, well, that's really strange. The last time I talked to Lisa, she was uh, you know, a commercial for Scientology and then of course you start thinking about it and I thought, oh yeah, she really was, wasn't she? What an odd thing. I hadn't thought about it in those terms until I said it out loud, that you know, usually as I said, Lisa and I talked about things that had to do with the church in terms of our lives, not just this is all wonderful, this is great, isn't it wonderful, and I can't say enough good about Scientology. She actually said those words, "I can't say enough good about this tech" and I was like, okay.
SF: How did she sound?
CH: Animated. Um, happy, you know, bubbly.
JO: So how did you come to the conclusion about the introspective rundown?
CH: Well, first of all, there would be no reason for Kelly to tell me that. There would absolu..., they would be no reason for her to say that, and the other thing is that Carla um, her sister, Kelly's sister, who I was really good friends with when we were younger, um, told me that she was on the phone with, or she had called Kelly, and Kelly said you're not going to believe who I'm on the phone with, I'm on the phone with Lisa Mac, let me call you back, and so, you know, that to me was urn,
SF: Cooboration.
CH: Absolutely. I was, I felt a little weird. I felt a little strange about it, cause I'm like, well, that's interesting, you know, we've been friends for all these years and kept in touch and everything, and yet you call me and tell me everything's peachy and sometime in a short period of time, you call Kelly and say "I'm outta here". I don't know that Kelly told me at that point that Lisa actually said I'm leaving Scientology, but she did definitely say that she was leaving Clearwater, that she wanted to come back to Dallas. So at first it was kind of this um, I had kind of a weird reaction to it because I was confused as to why she would give me the commercial and then call Kelly, but after talking with Kelly, I talked with her briefly at the funeral, and then actually met with she and Carla and Sherrie, our other friend, um, later, which was actually, probably several months ago, and we talked about it again, and I feel certain that it was the truth. She was telling me the truth, that Lisa had told her she was going to leave.

Page 30

JC: And how did you find out about introspective rundown?
CH: On the web. After her death, obviously I didn't have access to the St. Petersburg Times, or the Tribune article and um, we did a search just Yahoo search for her name and found the Trib article that was listed and then kind of backed out of it to a memorial page that was done by Jeff Jacobson, or Jacobs, or something like that, and um, then his page started kind of growing over time and one of the things that he listed was he, of course had links to the article and he also had some other Scientology things and he had something that L. Ron Hubbard had written back in the seventies about the introspection rundown. I don't know if you've read it or not, but it's pretty interesting stuff, pretty scary stuff, actually. So, I read that and they also had accounts on there on people who were kept against their will, and um, given what Lisa had told Kelly, and given her quick demise and death I, you know, it's pretty easy to put together, at least it was for me to put those two things together. The only thing that made me um, really concerned and feel very um, unset with the people in Clearwater was that I didn't know anything about the car accident. I had not heard about that and none of them had said anything about that and Mrs. McPherson found out in her callings and just trying to get information and get a straight answer. Somehow she, I think she got in touch with the man whose car, Lisa had hit and then when I called her, I called Fanny because I was checking in on her periodically after Lisa died and um, she had told me what had happened. I was livid, I was furious that this woman had stood and told me how horrible it was that, her husband had told what a great loss they had suffered and they were telling lies, you know, they weren't giving any information, you know, and that they, and then all the information about driving past, several, forty miles of, however to get to another hospital and initially when I heard that I thought, well, you know, if Lisa was okay, if she was conscious, she was all right, and she was stubborn, I can hear her say, "I want to go where there's going to be people", but then to find out, you know, she was totally unconscious, it was just a crock. So when I found out about the car accident, and I was very upset, I called Benetta back in Florida, because I still had her home phone number, and I asked her, what is this about, you know, what is the story, what happened, I don't know, I just don't know, and I said, well, did Lisa lose it, did she go crazy, I don't know Carol, I don't know, I wasn't there, and I said, well, I was just appalled.
SF: Did you ask her who could direct me to that could answer those questions?
CH: No, we actually had about, probably a, probably fifteen to twenty minute conversation at the time and I did ask her at that point, I said, "so, what do you think Lisa did?" Now at this point, you know, over the years, I've read different books about Scientology that Lisa had sent me, not in an effort to convince me but just as an explanation of her life and there's this whole thing about dropping the body, you know, you're going to drop the physical body at some point, but

Page 31

you're going to live on forever, right, which is, that's okay. I'm okay with that, living forever in the spiritual form idea, that's not a problem, but I asked Benetta, "so, what do you think she did Benetta, she just decided to check out, do you think she just picked an, you know, a dramatic way to do it?" and she said, "well, you know Lisa, you know she's pretty dramatic, she's always been pretty dramatic" and in the course of our conversation, what I realized was she was never going to tell me the truth. Ever, and it was very upsetting, because she told me she was Lisa's friend, and Lisa thought she was and I haven't, I threw her phone number away at that point, because I figured, I'm not going to get any closure from here. They're not going to um, they're not going to tell me anything. Obviously she knew about the accident ,she would've known, she was in Lisa's everyday life, you know, if Lisa was at a point where she was going to have a minor fender bender, and absolutely lose it, Benetta would have known about it, and if she didn't tell me then, she wasn't ever going to tell me, so.
SF: Super. I'm, that's going to be all the questions. Okay. The time is 1745.