1 STATE ATTORNEY INVESTIGATION
2
3
4 IN RE: LISA MCPHERSON |
|
5 |
|
6 __________________________ |
7
8
9
STATEMENT OF: VALERIE DEMANGE
10
TAKEN BY: State of Florida
11
BEFORE: Sheryl M. Williams,
12 CSR, CP, RPR, CM,
Notary Public,
13 State of Florida at large.
14 DATE: March 20, 1997
15 PLACE: Office of State Attorney,
Criminal Courts Complex,
16 Clearwater, Florida.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23 KANABAY & KANABAY OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
24 ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER - 821-3320
25 TAMPA - 224-9500
2
1
2 APPEARANCES: MR. MARK MCGARRY,
Assistant State Attorney
3 Attorney for State of Florida
4 DET. SGT. WAYNE C. ANDREWS
City of Clearwater
5 Clearwater Police Department
Criminal Investigations Division
6 Crimes Against Persons Unit
645 Pierce Street
7 Clearwater, Florida 34616
8 MR. ALLAN "LEE" STROPE
Special Agent
9 Florida Department of Law
Enforcement
10 Clearwater Field Office
28870 U.S. Highway 19, Suite 200
11 Clearwater, Florida 34621
12 MR. ROBERT P. POLLI
Barnett Bank Plaza, 3130
13 101 East Kennedy Boulevard
Tampa, Florida 33602
14 Attorney for Valerie Demange
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
3
1 MR. MCGARRY: All right, do you need to
2 put anything on the record?
3 MR. POLLI: Just briefly. Ms. Demange
4 is here pursuant to a State Attorney's subpoena and
5 pursuant to, I think it's Florida Statute 914, it
6 provides her with use immunity. I have spent some time
7 explaining to her what the subpoena was, in the first
8 place, and what the use immunity is, and she has an
9 understanding of what those protections are and rules
10 are, and we are ready to proceed accordingly.
11 MR. MCGARRY: Thank you.
12 _______________________________________
13 VALERIE DEMANGE
14 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was
15 examined and testified as follows:
16 EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. MCGARRY:
18 Q. Valerie, my name is Mark McGarry. I am going
19 to ask you some questions as to an investigation as to
20 the death of Ms. McPherson. Your name has come up as a
21 person that might have had some contact with her, so we
22 are going to explore that. Before I do so, I would
23 like to get some background information from you.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Is Valerie, the name that you gave here, is
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
4
1 that your given name or married name?
2 A. Given name.
3 Q. Okay, and your date of birth?
4 A. 11, March, 1965.
5 Q. And are you currently employed or residing in
6 Clearwater?
7 A. Yes, I am.
8 Q. And where is that?
9 A. I am with the Church of Scientology.
10 Q. Is your mailing address just Church of
11 Scientology? If somebody were sending you mail, it
12 would get routed through the inner Church through the
13 mail?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q: Do you have a telephone?
16 Yeah, area code 813-461-1282 and my extension
17 is 5635.
18 Q. How long have you been with the Church of
19 Scientology?
20 A. Since 1985.
21 Q. And how long have you been residing in
22 Clearwater?
23 A. I came here in May 1993.
24 Q. `93?
25 A. That's right.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
5
1 Q. And where was that from?
2 A. I came from Los Angeles.
3 Q. Los Angeles?
4 A. I was with the Church of Scientology
5 International at the time.
6 Q. Out there?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. And did you come to Clearwater because of the
9 Church of Scientology?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Was that a reassignment or was that something
12 that you came here on your own?
13 A. No, that was a reassignment.
14 Q. It was?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What did you do when you were in LA? What
17 were your responsibilities? Are you a staff member?
18 A. That is right.
19 Q. Were you a staff member then?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. What were your responsibilities in LA?
22 A. I was for six months on the training. It
23 was, really, different courses, and then I had been in
24 a post for about one month.
25 Q. In a post?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
6
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. What does that mean?
3 A. Duty with the Church over there. I was busy
4 there in communications staff, telexes, radio
5 communications.
6 Q. Is that your expertise, in communications?
7 A. Some, yeah.
8 Q. Okay, and when you were transferred to
9 Clearwater, why was that?
10 A. I came actually first on a project here,
11 which was mainly to contact publics (phonetic), where I
12 was going to come, you know, for courses, for services.
13 Q. Publics?
14 A. We call publics in the Church, is people who
15 would have taken courses, you know, our Scientologists.
16 Q. I got you.
17 A. Right, and after that, I was doing that for
18 about five months, and then I was -- I go to post
19 afterward, duty in Clearwater.
20 Q. In the Church, what is that?
21 A. I am the staff chaplain. What does that mean
22 is I am busy making sure staff members of the Church
23 are doing fine, they don't have any problems in the
24 family, whatever, and help resolve. That's what I am
25 doing.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
7
1 Q. That is what you are doing right now?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That is still your duty?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Sometime in November of 1995, did you
6 eventually come in contact with Lisa McPherson?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you know her prior to her coming to the
9 cabana?
10 A. No, I didn't.
11 Q. You never met her?
12 A. No, never met her.
13 Q. Okay. How did you come in contact with Lisa
14 McPherson at the cabana?
15 A. I was told they needed a person to be with
16 her, and I was there, and they needed somebody to be
17 with her.
18 Q. Okay, let's follow that up. Who was that
19 person that told you that?
20 A. It was somebody from security, I believe.
21 Q. Do you remember who that was?
22 A. I am not complete positive.
23 Q. Okay. Would it have been Arthur Baxter?
24 A. It could have been.
25 Q. Do you know who Arthur Baxter is?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
8
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is he in the security section of the Church?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is he currently in the security section of
5 the Church?
6 A. Yes, he is.
7 Q. Could it have been Paul Kellerhous? I Do you
8 know Paul Kellerhous?
9 A. Yes, I know him well. I know he was around
10 at the time, but I don't remember exactly. He might
11 have told me about it.
12 Q. It might have been one of those two?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. But you are not sure?
15 A. No, I am not sure.
16 Q. Okay, and what was said to you by this
17 person?
18 A. What I was told is, I was told the story of
19 what happened. What I was told at the time was Lisa
20 was driving on the street and she saw an accident, and
21 at that point she took her clothes off and started
22 walking the street, and at that point she was picked up
23 by an ambulance, I think, and was brought to the
24 hospital, and from there she was picked up from
25 somebody from the Church and was brought here and taken
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
9
1 care of.
2 Q. You don't know who brought her from the
3 hospital to the Church?
4 A. I wasn't told at the time, but I know now. I
5 think there was somebody from the Office of Special
6 Affairs and another person, who I don't know the name.
7 Q. Do you know who the person was from the
8 Office of Special Affairs?
9 A. I am not sure.
10 Q. Alain Kartuzinski?
11 A. No. He is not from the Office of Special
12 Affairs.
13 Q. He was not the one that brought her from the
14 hospital?
15 A. I don't know. I have no idea on that.
16 Q. Do you remember what date, as best you can
17 remember, using Thanksgiving Day as a possible
18 reference, when you were approached by the security
19 guard and asked to do this?
20 A. Yeah, I was -- as far as I remember, because
21 saw the reports I wrote at the time, it was the 21st.
22 Q. Okay, that was the -- when you were first
23 approached by the security guard was the 21st or
24 somewhere around that time?
25 A. Yeah.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
10
1 Q. And what did he ask you to do?
2 A. Basically what he asked me to do was to be
3 with Lisa, make sure she would eat, that she would
4 sleep, because -- well, I mean, she had to get some
5 rest. That were the main points, and that she gets
6 anything she wants, that she needs.
7 Q. Were you -- was there a team of someone here
8 that--
9 A. No, I was approached personally. At the
10 time, there was another person that was there and that
11 person was Emma Schermerhorn.
12 Q. She was there on the 21st?
13 A. As far as I remember, yeah, she was there at
14 the time, Emma Schermerhorn, when I came in where I
15 was, if I remember, she was there.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. She didn't stay all the time. She stayed for
18 a few hours.
19 Q. Did you ever meet with Olivie (phonetic) or
20 Oliver Jarrot, J A R R O T?
21 A. I know him.
22 Q. Did you meet in this circumstance?
23 Q. Yes -- I don't remember now. I don't
24 remember right that night at least.
25 Q. Do you know him?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
11
1 A. Yes, I know him well.
2 Q. Is he still with the Church?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What does he do for the Church?
5 A. He is in charge of personnel, communications.
6 That's what he is doing.
7 Q. That's kind of what you do?
8 A. Sort of.
9 Q. That's kind of what you do, right?
10 A. Yes, but not exactly.
11 Q. All right. Who were some of the other people
12 that you met that were assigned to this, and for lack
13 of a better term, I don't know, if you object to this
14 term, you can use whichever one you think is best
15 served, I will say watch?
16 A. You want the name of the people?
17 Q. Well--
18 A. We call that watch.
19 Q. Is that fair enough, watch?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Who were some of the people that were
22 involved with the watch?
23 A. One was Laura Arrunada. One was Sylvia
24 Delavaga, another one was Heidi Cesare.
25 Q. Say that again.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
12
1 A. Heidi Cesare.
2 Q. Heidi, okay.
3 MR. STROPE: Do you know how to spell
4 the last name?
5 A. C E S A R E, I guess. She was there. I
6 remember another person, but I don't know her name. I
7 don't know who it was.
8 BY MR. MCGARRY:
9 Q. Rita Boykin?
10 A. Yeah, she was.
11 Q. Barbro Wennberg?
12 A. Well, yeah.
13 Q. Okay. Heather somebody?
14 A. Heather, yeah. Heather Pietzold. I am not
15 sure she had this name at the time. She got married.
16 Q. Susan or Suzanne Reich?
17 A. I don't remember her.
18 Q. You don't? Joan Stevens?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Joan Stevens. Patricia Stracener?
21 A. That's right.
22 MR. STROPE: What is that last name?
23 A. STRACENER.
24 MR. STROPE: Thank you.
25
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
13
1 BY MR. MCGARRY:
2 Q. Alice Vangrondel.
3 Q. Yes.
4 Q. Were all these people helping out with this
5 watch?
6 A. At some point.
7 Q. At some point in time?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. And going back to the instructions you
10 received from this security person, those are the only
11 instructions that you received, was from that
12 individual, or was it from anybody else?
13 A. From that individual.
14 Q. That individual?
15 A. Yeah. I mean, you know, I was coming new. I
16 had no idea, you know.
17 Q. That's why I am asking you, since you didn't
18 know exactly what services you were going to perform,
19 my question is, were you given any additional
20 instructions to guide you in what you were to do by
21 anybody else?
22 A. No, I mean, that she was, you know, not
23 crazy, right, but she had gone a bit crazy. There was
24 additional data. I was told that, see that also she
25 doesn't hurt herself.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
14
1 Q. How did you, along with possibly ten or
2 eleven people here, how did you work out a schedule?
3 How was that worked out? Who worked out the schedule
4 for who was going to be with her at a certain period of
5 time?
6 A. Well, around the 26th, we meet with, like,
7 several of these people. Not all of them were there,
8 but most of them were there.
9 Q. The 26th of November?
10 A. Yeah, it was around that date.
11 Q. After -- that's after you had already been
12 doing it for awhile, right?
13 A. Well, I was on the 21st. I started around,
14 let's see, somewhere around twelve thirty or something
15 like that at night. I went through the night with
16 Lisa, and then the day after, it was in the morning,
17 afternoon, then I left up to about two o'clock,
18 something like that.
19 Q. How long were your blocks of the watch? How
20 long a period of time did you go?"
21 A. It was different. It was not always the
22 same. It was not like six hours, six hours, six hours
23 each time.
24 Q. All right. In your reports, I notice that
25 you would start your report out saying Dear Sir. Who
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
15
1 was that person that you are writing that report for?
2 A. For Alain Kartuzinski.
3 Q. Alain Kartuzinski?
4 A. Well, the term sir is -- in the organization
5 where I am, we have a -- what do you call that? Well,
6 and Alan Kartuzinski, I would call him sir, just with
7 respect.
8 Q. So how did you know to give him the reports?
9 A. I mean, I knew -- how did I know? I just
10 know that Alain is, you know, the person -- I know he
11 was supervising the cycle. I mean, he was supervising
12 what had happened, what was happening, how she was
13 doing and so forth.
14 Q. So he was the supervisor in this thing?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And I take it you never met with him, then?
17 Or you did meet with him?
18 A. Yeah, but on the 26th, not at first.
19 Q. The 26th you met with him?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. There is a person named Spencer
22 (phonetic). Did he or she also worked for Alain
23 Kartuzinski?
24 A. Well, I know that person?
25 Q. Is that a he or she?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
16
1 A. She. She wasn't working -- I mean, I don't
2 remember if she was in that. She was not working
3 directly for Alain Kartuzinski.
4 Q. How did you give your reports to Mr.
5 Kartuzinski? Did you drop them off personally?
6 A. No, I -- it was -- once, I remember I gave it
7 to somebody from the security.
8 Q. Who was that, do you know?
9 A. Yes. What is his name? Do you remember the
10 name?
11 Q. Alphonso?
12 A. Alphonso, and once I gave it to -- this
13 report to a person who was working -- was working for
14 Alain Kartuzinski.
15 Q. Do you remember that person?
16 A. Yes -- I don't remember names. I don't
17 remember the name right now.
18 Q. Okay. Do you remember a security guard by
19 the name of Sam Ghiora?
20 A. Yeah, I know him.
21 Q. Was he working during this period of time, do
22 you remember?
23 A. Could have. I am not positive.
24 Q. Who was the one that instructed you that you
25 should make reports and notes about your watch? Who
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
17
1 told you to do that?
2 A. The person from security, plus my on advice,
3 actually. I mean, it was clear to me that, you know, I
4 had to report what was happening, what was going on, to
5 the person supervising, you know, this.
6 Q. All right. Going to the 21st, what time of
7 day did you begin your watch on the 21st?
8 A. Was about twelve at night, twelve thirty,
9 something like that.
10 Q. So that would have been the early morning
11 hours of the 21st or the late evening hours -- early
12 morning hours of the 21st?
13 A. I think so, yeah.
14 Q. And who was there with you, do you remember?
15 A. When I started, Emma was there, and then
16 after, I was by myself.
17 Q. Okay, and this is the report that documents
18 your watch (indicating). I don't know what number that
19 is on the bottom. That is one thirty-nine?
20 A. Yeah, yeah.
21 Q. Okay, it finishes up with this piece, one
22 forty (indicating)?
23 A. Um-hum.
24 Q. Is that your report for that particular
25 evening?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
18
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Okay, and is this the first report that you
3 wrote?
4 A. I think so, yeah.
5 Q. I want you to describe how she was when you
6 first started the watch.
7 A. I She was sleeping when I came, and she
8 actually slept for a long time, about eight hours, if I
9 remember well, up until the next morning. She was a
10 bit agitated. Like, when she would sleep, sometimes
11 she would say something.
12 Q. Did you have any conversations with Lisa that
13 night?
14 A. Not during that time when she was sleeping.
15 Q. How about when she woke up?
16 A. No. One of the instructions was not to talk
17 to her, to have a conversation with the person.
18 Q. That's part of the practice of the Church
19 when somebody has a situation like this?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. And were you practicing that?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. Was Lisa trying to communicate with you at
24 all?
25 A. Yeah.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
19
1 Q. She was?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. But you would not respond?
4 A. Well, no, not with words, I guess.
5 Q. The communications that she had with you,
6 what was the nature of those?
7 A. When she woke up, that's the question?
8 Q. Well, at any time.
9 A. Because it's quite different from one time to
10 the other. I don't remember well the morning, but I
11 remember well the afternoon, and she was quite
12 agitated, you know, the way she was talking. Like, for
13 instance, she would, well, you know, start walking
14 around and dancing and would ask me to come and dance,
15 this type of thing.
16 Q. Okay. When you said quite agitated, what
17 physical observation did you make?
18 A. Well, she would walk fast in her movement,
19 and then stop and then say something suddenly, and
20 start to make -- you couldn't, like, tell really what
21 she would do or what she would say next.
22 Q. Well, I noticed in your report that you fed
23 her a couple of times, right?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. And some of the food that she ate or at least
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
20
1 a little bit of what she ate was toast and eggs?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. Was that that morning?
4 A. I think so.
5 Q. How would you describe her eating that
6 morning?
7 A. Normal.
8 Q. Okay, she ate some?
9 A. That's right. She didn't eat a lot, but she
10 ate some. I can trust better the report at the time
11 than my own recollection.
12 Q. I noticed even before the eggs and toast, that
13 you gave her two hundred milligrams of Bl, two hundred
14 milligrams of C vitamin, I guess that is, some
15 potassium and some B6. Did you give all that to her?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And whose instructions were those to give
18 those to her?
19 A. The vitamins were in the room, and the person
20 that was with me told me, well, these are the vitamins
21 that she needs to take.
22 Q. And that person was?
23 A. Emma.
24 Q. Emma?
25 A. Yeah.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
21
1 Q. All right.
2 A. And that was my own knowledge. I mean, we
3 have certain vitamins and how it's important a person
4 takes them.
5 Q. Did she take them?
6 A. Yeah, she did.
7 Q. Did you ever notice during this particular
8 watch that you were on on the 21st that she physically
9 harmed herself in any way?
10 A. Yes, and it was in the evening, not in the
11 afternoon. In the afternoon she was agitated, but she
12 didn't hurt herself or was not violent, anyway;
13 however, in the evening she was much more agitated, and
14 at some point I remember she nearly fell, you know, on
15 a table. I catched her at the end, and I remember once
16 when she tried to break the window.
17 Q. Why did she try to break the window, do you
18 know?
19 A. I don't know. It's something that I don't
20 know why she would try to hit the wall. I am not sure.
21 Q. Okay. Did you get any assistance from any of
22 the security guards on the floor of that watch?
23 A. Not directly.
24 Q. Was one nearby?
25 A. Not up to around twelve o'clock that next
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
22
1 night.
2 Q. Why is that?
3 A. Because she was -- well, at first, she was
4 attacking me. She tried to hit me, and like I told
5 you, there was one point where she just fell down and
6 nearly, you know -- I mean, she nearly fell with her
7 neck on the table, and I was, like, -- I don't
8 understand why that happened, really. She was out of
9 her mind at that point, I would say, and I thought,
10 well, it would be probably better if, you know, at
11 least somebody would be outside.
12 Q. Who was that?
13 A. There was nobody at the time.
14 Q. Who eventually did? Are you talking about a
15 security person?
16 A. Yeah, the same guy.
17 Q. Sam Alphonso?
18 A. Alphonso.
19 Q. I forgot to ask you, do you know why you were
20 selected for this watch, why you were picked out of all
21 the people that were on the staff at the Church?
22 A. I am not positively sure of that.
23 Q. Do you have any expertise in medical training
24 or background that would help you in that respect?
25 A. Well, I did some nurse -- I mean, I did a
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
23
1 year of nurse school, but I am not a nurse at all.
2 Q. You don't have a certification for that?
3 A. No, no. I ended the studies before the end
4 of it.
5 Q. Do you think that may have been the reason
6 why they selected you?
7 A. I don't think so at all, no.
8 Q. All right. Did you notice in Lisa's room
9 that she had any personal effects that were there, like
10 clothing?
11 A. Yeah, she had clothes, T-shirts, some pants.
12 There was a bag with some clothes.
13 Q. Okay. Do you know how those clothes came to
14 be in that room?
15 A. Absolutely not.
16 Q. Do you know who the individuals were that may
17 have taken them there, gone to get her clothes?
18 A. No, actually.
19 Q. The clothes were just in the room when you
20 got there?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. After the 21st, did you ever see Doctor
23 Johnson in that period of time?
24 A. Not at that time, not on the 21st.
25 Q. So you had that whole day?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
24
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. All the way from early morning all the way
3 around the clock until midnight?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. That's a long time.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did anything else eventful happen on the 21st
8 that you remember?
9 A. You mean?
10 Q. Well, let me ask you this, were you given any
11 instructions to deal with in the event that Lisa were
12 to try to leave, walk out the door? How would you
13 handle that?
14 A. Well, I was not given instructions on that,
15 for example, don't let her leave out of the door or
16 something like that, but let's say that night when she
17 was taking off her clothes and things like that and
18 went crazy, I would probably have stopped her if she
19 had tried because, I mean, if she ran out of the door,
20 she would be on the street naked, could be, you know,
21 hurt by a car or something. I mean, for her own
22 protection --
23 Q. Did she ever try to leave?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Never did?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
25
1 A. No. I mean, when I said she tried to break
2 the window, she just tried to break the window. It was
3 not like she tried to leave. I mean, the door was
4 there. She didn't try to go to the door.
5 Q. Well, was that door unlocked or locked?
6 A. It was unlocked.
7 Q. Unlocked all day?
8 A. Yeah. I mean, I never remember the door
9 locked at any time.
10 Q. You didn't have a key to that door, did you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. All right. We are all the way to midnight on
13 the 21st. Now your shift is almost over?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And does somebody come to relieve you?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. Who was that?
18 A. Alice Vangrondel.
19 Q. Alice? She is the only one?
20 A. There was another girl, which I don't
21 remember the name. She is not in Clearwater anymore.
22 She came very, very shortly before Alice. She came
23 there and actually around the room to show where the
24 clothes were, the vitamins are, and Lisa came to her
25 and slapped her in the face, and she didn't want to be
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
26
1 there then. She left.
2 Q. Do you know why Lisa did that?
3 A. Well, I don't have -- I don't have an
4 explanation, only that she, you know, was very
5 agitated.
6 Q. Okay. So nobody else was with Alice, Alice
7 was by herself that time?
8 A. I stayed with Alice for about half an hour,
9 to make sure everything was okay.
10 Q. What was Lisa doing at the time?
11 A. I remember her sitting on the bed, talking,
12 saying the same thing, but not especially to us, just,
13 like, talking, standing up, going around the room,
14 coming back, sitting down, agitated.
15 Q. When did you write your report?
16 A. This one was written the next day, I think.
17 It's true I couldn't see a report of the afternoon or
18 evening. I don't recall exactly if I wrote one or not,
19 but I told you what happened here.
20 Q. So the best you can recall, this is all you
21 did?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. And you reviewed the reports before you came
24 here, correct?
25 A. Yes, I read them.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
27
1 Q. You provided those to --
2 A. My attorney.
3 Q. That's fine. And you indicated you handed in
4 these reports to who?
5 A. Well, I remember I gave one to Alphonso and
6 another one to Lacie. Lacie, that's the name, that's
7 the person that was working with Alain Kartuzinski.
8 Q. Lacie?
9 A. Spencer, that's right.
10 Q. I assume you got some sleep at this time?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When was your next contact with Lisa?
13 A. That was days later, about three, four days
14 later, and I came in the room -- I came back in the
15 room around three, three o'clock, three thirty in the
16 morning, with another person, Sylvia.
17 Q. Sylvia?
18 A. Delavaga.
19 Q. And do you remember who it was -- who was
20 leaving as you were coming?
21 A. Yeah, Patricia Stracener, and I think Heidi
22 Cesare was with her. I am not completely sure, but
23 Patricia, I am sure, I remember that.
24 Q. Okay. And can you tell me how Lisa was doing
25 when you arrived on that day? That would be the 26th,
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
28
1 if you can recall.
2 A. Yes, at night.
3 Q. That was three a.m.?
4 A. That's right. So when I arrived there, Lisa
5 was very, very agitated, and she was trying to hit the
6 other girls and, well, it was not a long time before
7 they left and we came. Lisa was talking a lot, moving
8 a lot. She was hitting the wall, kinds of things like
9 that. I think it went on for a bit. That's what I
10 remember of that night.
11 Q. Okay. The same question, did she ever try to
12 leave?
13 A. No.
14 Q. In any of the conversations that she was
15 doing then, I would assume it would just be nonsense or
16 something that couldn't be interpreted?
17 A. That's right. I mean, could be, like, I mean
18 if somebody asked you if there are birds outside and
19 she is afraid that there are birds outside, you can --
20 you can understand that, but it doesn't make sense.
21 Q. Take us through that watch, if you would,
22 please.
23 A. Okay, well, that's about what I remember.
24 Q. You wrote a report on that day also?
25 A. Yes, it was that day or the day after.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
29
1 Q. Okay, I will hand you what is marked one
2 forty-three and one forty-four (indicating). Is that
3 yours?
4 A. Yes, it's mine. Okay, so, yes, that's the
5 report from three thirty to ten a.m. I said she was
6 very nervous and agitated. She didn't sleep that
7 night, and then she slept from one to two p.m., and
8 then she was awake and had been awake since. All
9 right, it wasn't a good day, I would say, and she
10 didn't want to drink much and she didn't want to eat,
11 but she took some orange juice and threw the rest away.
12 Q. Is that your writing on there?
13 A. That's what I wrote.
14 MR. POLLI: You are talking about the
15 bottom?
16 MR. MCGARRY: The bottom.
17 A. No, that's not my writing.
18 BY MR. MCGARRY:
19 Q. What does that say again?
20 A. It says update, four thirty-five p.m., lying
21 down resting, not asleep.
22 Q. Who wrote that?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Who was on your shift with you? Is that
25 Alice?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
30
1 A. No, Sylvia Delavaga.
2 Q. Sylvia. Could that have been Sylvia?
3 A. Possible.
4 Q. That's who you were with that day, Sylvia?
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Did Doctor Johnson drop by?
7 A. Not that day, that I remember.
8 Q. Did you ever have a day where Doctor Johnson
9 dropped by?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You did?
12 A. Yes, it was later, though, as far as I
13 remember. I remember the last day I was there and it
14 was on the 29th. I think she had come the day before,
15 too, but I am not completely sure if it was the day
16 before. It could have been the day before.
17 Q. Let me have that back.
18 A. Sure (indicating).
19 Q. Anything else that you made observations of
20 that is not on this report that you observed on the
21 26th?
22 A. No, actually I don't remember well these
23 times. I mean, the report I can remember best reading
24 that.
25 Q. Is this your second page that says rush? Did
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
31
1 you write that?
2 A. Yes. I don't know why it would be on one
3 page.
4 Q. That's all there is, it just says rush.
5 A. That's my writing.
6 Q. What does that mean, rush?
7 A. We have two systems of communications. One
9 means when we want to write faster to another person,
11 rush, take it directly and read it to the other person.
12 Q. I see. So this would have been a rush?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Okay, and you finished up this watch at
15 approximately what time?
16 A. I don't remember. I mean, during this three
17 days, I was, like, sometimes with her, sometimes not
18 anymore, but I would go to sleep and I would come back,
19 but it wasn't like I would be like -- it would never be
20 the same number of hours, so I can't really remember,
21 you know, how it was organized.
22 Q. All right, and you didn't return to the
23 cabana the 12th -- 29th, you say?
24 A. Well, no, -- I think from the 26th to the 29th I
25 was regularly in there, let's say ten hours and I would
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
32
1 sleep for six or seven hours, and then come back with
2 Lisa.
3 Q. Okay, the reason why I asked that is because
4 we don't have another report from you until the 29th.
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Two days are skipped there?
7 A. That's right. There would be other reports.
8 I don't remember exactly. I mean, when I saw this
9 report, I don't even remember what it was, you know, so
10 I remember that I had written some, but I couldn't tell
11 you.
12 Q. Okay, so you did spend some time with her
13 maybe on the 26th and the 29th?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember who you were with on those
16 shifts?
17 A. Sylvia.
18 Q. Sylvia?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. And can you put any of that together through
21 your memory for us on the 27th, 28th as to who you
22 relieved, what times you were there, what times you
23 left?
24 A. Frankly, I can't remember.
25 Q. Can you put together through your memory any
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
33
1 specific events that might stick out in your mind that
2 occurred with Lisa that you can recall?
3 A. Well, yes -- well, what I remember, she was
4 sometimes, like, laying down in the bed, sometimes
5 sleeping for an hour or two, and then standing up,
6 going to, you know, the bathroom, looking at the staff,
7 coming back, laying down again, talking to
8 (indicating). I don't remember, like, very -- I mean,
9 we had her take a bath. I remember two times of that.
10 Q. Did she have any books, reading materials,
11 Church materials?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Would that have been permitted?
14 A. Oh, yeah, sure.
15 Q. There was no television?
16 A. No.
17 Q. No video?
18 A. No.
19 Q. No?
20 A. No, not in her room, itself.
21 Q. Do you ever remember any visitors? Did
22 anybody ever stop by and say hi, family members,
23 friends?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Friends from work, anybody?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
34
1 A. No.
2 Q. Never?
3 A. No.
4 Q. If somebody wanted to call her, could that be
5 done, do you know, if somebody wanted to get in touch
6 with her?
7 A. Well, I guess they could call the Church. I
8 don't know exactly what they would be told. I don't
9 know. I didn't have to deal with that at all.
10 Q. Okay. Any events during the 27th or 28th
11 that you recall where she physically injured herself
12 and had to be restrained from injuring herself?
13 A. Yeah, she would have a tendency to bang on
14 the walls or to -- like, I remember once she just
15 jumped on her bed, she nearly hurt her head on the
16 wall, but it didn't happen, okay. She would throw
17 things around her room to -- like, for example, once a
18 cup was there and she threw it at the food.
19 Q. How was her diet during that day?
20 A. Her diet?
21 Q. Yes, ma'am.
22 A. I remember she would take vitamins, she would
23 drink, she would also take some protein drink. That's
24 what she liked the most, actually. That was the most
25 easy thing to have her take than some, like, solid
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
35
1 food. She hardly ate, that she didn't want to. I
2 remember once, the food on her plate was brought and
3 she threw it in the room. There was no way she was
4 going to take anything like that.
5 Q. Other than -- aside from vitamins and protein
6 drink and all that stuff, did you ever see her or did
7 you ever administer to her any other prescription
8 drugs?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Never? Pills?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Are you familiar with a pill called chloral
13 hydrate? I think it's a sleeping pill.
14 A. No, never.
15 Q. And do you know -- you don't know about any
16 of that?
17 A. Well, I don't know this type, but I never saw
18 her administered it. I never administered any such
19 thing like, you know, a sleeping pill.
20 Q. Did you ever observe anybody else to do that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right, let's move to the 29th. You have
23 a report on the 29th.
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. I want you to look at it. It's marked one
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
36
1 forty-seven (indicating).
2 A. Thank you.
3 Q. Is that the next report you remember making,
4 or do you know if you made any in between the 26th or
5 the 29th?
6 A. I would have, but I don't remember exactly.
7 Q. Is the 29th the last time that you had your
8 duty of the watch?
9 A. Actually, I think it went up to the 30th.
10 When I read the reports, I saw the additional reports,
11 that was when the date actually should have been the
12 30th. It was written the 29th.
13 Q. The initial report?
14 A. It was one of the two of the last.
15 MR. ANDREWS: We just got, I believe it
16 was this one (indicating), addition. That's the 29th
17 report (indicating). It refers back to the 29th. It
18 doesn't make any sense in time.
19 A. We tried to reconcile it and it couldn't fit.
20 I was like -- that would be the 30th. It fits.
21 MR. POLLI: She was in shifts around the
22 clock sometimes.
23 BY MR. MCGARRY:
24 Q. You made a mistake on the day?
25 A. It could be.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
37
1 Q. What does that report say?
2 MR. ANDREWS: "It's eleven a.m.
3 Yesterday morning Lisa slept three hours during the
4 day. It was three times one hour in parentheses, and
5 as I wrote earlier, she did sleep three hours this last
6 night. I think it's one hour and a half ago she drank
7 a full protein drink, as well as took three hundred
8 milligrams of Bl minerals, B complex, two hundred
9 milligrams of potassium. We then had her take a bath
10 as it has been successful yesterday to have her
11 sleep," and it's Valerie.
12 BY MR. MCGARRY:
13 Q. Okay, so you think that might have been the
14 30th?
15 A. Yeah, could have been.
16 Q. Who were you with on the 29th, 30th?
17 A. I think it was Sylvia Delavaga. During this
18 period of time, I think I was with her all the time.
19 Q. Do you remember seeing Rita during this
20 period of time also?
21 A. I don't remember. Rita? Not really.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. I can't remember who was there.
24 Q. So the best you recall, the 30th is the last
25 day that you were assigned the watch?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
38
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you describe her behavior on the last
3 day? Was it the same, much the same, or was it
4 different?
5 A. It was quite the same in terms of sitting
6 with her, violent at some point. I mean, being very
7 disturbed, it was the same on that. She did look more
8 tired. I mean, it wasn't too surprising. She wasn't
9 sleeping much, like, three hours at night, maybe two,
10 three in the day or things like that. She had some --
11 you know, she did lose some weight. I could see that
12 from the first time from the 21st and now -- it wasn't,
13 like, major, but, you know, she was like this, you know
14 (indicating).
15 Q. And throughout these days, you and your
16 helpers were continuing to observe her?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. Did Lisa, did she ever say during this period
19 of time what her goal was in this room or did she ever
20 realize or acknowledge to you that she was not right,
21 not feeling right, something was wrong or she was
22 hoping to go home or get -- come through all this? Did
23 she ever acknowledge any of that, to the best of your
24 recollection?
25 A. No, no, not really. I mean, what she was
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
39
1 talking about was things completely different. No.
2 Q. Okay. Going back to the 26th, I would like
3 to revisit that day because you mentioned you had a
4 meeting that day with Alain Kartuzinski and some of the
5 other people. Can we go over that night?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Tell me what time of day that was.
8 A. That was around seven o'clock in the evening,
9 seven p.m., and along that time and --
10 Q. Where was that meeting?
11 A. In the office of Alain Kartuzinski.
12 Q. The same building there?
13 A. The Fort Harrison, yeah.
14 Q. How did you know about that meeting?
15 A. I think I had a note under my door, the door
16 in my office, saying you need to come or something like
17 that, and I think then I called there and I said, well,
18 what is going on, what is happening, and they said just
19 come over, so I came, and here was some different
20 people. Most of them were mentioned already and, well,
21 then--
22 Q. What was the purpose of the meeting?
23 A. To organize, you know, who was going to be
24 with Lisa, what time, you know, and that two persons
25 were always with her at all times.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
40
1 Q. Was Doctor Johnson there?
2 A. I don't recall that.
3 Q. How close of friends were you with Doctor
4 Johnson?
5 A. I am good friends with her. I mean, I know
6 her well.
7 Q. What was her position at that time?
8 A. She was the medical officer.
9 Q. Was she the one that would be responsible for
10 making sure that Lisa was medically okay?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Who would have been?
13 A. A medical doctor.
14 Q. Do you know who that was?
15 A. I don't know, actually. I mean, the medical
16 officer relies on medical doctors, and the doctors
17 would make the decision for the medical aspect.
18 Q. You are aware Laura had some medical training
19 also, right?
20 A. Yeah, yeah, she used to be a nurse or
21 something.
22 Q. Did she take any extra responsibilities to
23 ensure that Lisa was medically sound, that you recall?
24 A. I mean, no, I don't remember that. I was not
25 with her, you know, during the time that she was with
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
41
1 Lisa, so I don't know.
2 Q. Well, was there somebody with some medical
3 training that was assigned or undertook on their own
4 the responsibility to check and make sure that she was
5 medically okay, not just physically okay?
6 A. Well, the medical officer would be the
7 person, you know.
8 Q. That would be Doctor Johnson?
9 A. That's right. That would be the person that
10 was responsible to make sure if there is anything
11 physical, you know, it gets addressed, you know.
12 Q. Is there anything that you observed during
13 your three or four days with her, five days, that
14 needed physical attention: Bites, scratches, bruises?
15 A. Bruises, yeah. I mean, it was not, like,
16 completely surprising for me at the time, because she
17 was always hurting herself, you know, when being
18 agitated, you know. The fact that she had lost some
19 weight, but the same thing, it's, like, well, if you
20 don't eat much and don't sleep much, you lose some
21 weight, so it wouldn't be, like, well, there is a big
22 problem or something like that, but it could be
23 something that wasn't in the care. I am not sure.
24 Q. Who was Lisa's senior, do you know? Did she
25 have a senior?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
42
1 A. Yes, she was working with Bennetta Slaughter.
2 Q. Bennetta Slaughter?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. That's also her employer, correct?
5 A. Yeah, that was her employer.
6 Q. Was that also her senior?
7 A. But Lisa was not a Church member -- I mean a
8 Church staff member.
9 Q. She was just a member of the Church?
10 A. Right, that's right.
11 MR. MCGARRY: Mr. Andrews, let me see
12 that report of Doctor Johnson that you have.
13 MR. ANDREWS: (Indicating).
14 BY MR. MCGARRY:
15 Q. There is the report.
16 A. Two fourteen.
17 Q. Two fourteen. Did you look at this report
18 before you came in here today? That's Doctor Johnson.
19 A. Yeah, I saw it.
20 Q. I think your name is mentioned in there.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Paragraph one, maybe?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. It's hard to tell, but I think the date on
25 that is December 1st, so Lisa -- my confusion is, did
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
43
1 you not see Lisa after the 29th or the 30th?
2 A. I have no report written.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. I mean, the dates, I couldn't remember when I
5 first saw the reports.
6 Q. Go ahead and read that report there, if you
7 would.
8 A. Okay. I am not sure about the first -- given
9 two--
10 Q. You can read it to yourself.
11 (Whereupon the witness reads the report)
12 A. I am not understanding everything.
13 Q. I am not asking you to, really. Do you
14 remember any of that?
15 A. Is she talking about -- yes.
16 Q. I don't know. Do you remember that, an
17 injection?
18 A. Yes. What I know is magnesium. Like, from
19 my recall, it was about on the 29th.
20 Q. And who did that, Doctor Johnson?
21 A. Administered it, yeah.
22 Q. How do you know what it was that she was
23 getting injected with? Was it a shot?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you there for that?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
44
1 A. I was there when it was administered. It was
2 administered here (indicating).
3 Q. You don't remember what day that was?
4 A. I am not completely sure, but I think it was
5 the 29th.
6 Q. Was it during the day or nighttime?
7 A. I think it was during the afternoon.
8 Q. Do you know what the purpose of the shot was
9 for?
10 A. I had asked Janis, and she said it would help
11 her get some rest, sleep, because it would, I would
12 say, relax the muscles.
13 Q. Did it work, do you know?
14 A. I don't know that. I wasn't -- I don't
15 remember exactly.
16 Q. Do you remember Lisa responding to getting
17 the shot? Did she resist it or did she accept it?
18 A. She accepted it. It was not like she was
19 fighting it at all.
20 Q. Is that the only time you saw Doctor Johnson?
21 MR. POLLI: Stop a second and let's go
22 off the record and let me give her some advice.
23 (Whereupon a discussion was held off the record).
24 A. I didn't consider it being that. For me,
25 it's like vitamins, magnesium, potassium.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
45
1 BY MR. MCGARRY:
2 Q. I am sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.
3 Did Doctor Johnson tell you what was in that shot?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. What did she say?
6 A. I asked, actually.
7 Q. What was it?
8 A. Magnesium.
9 Q. It was to help her relax?
10 A. That's right. She was very unrested. Even
11 if when she would lay down, she would be, like, you
12 know (indicating).
13 Q. You mentioned earlier there weren't many
14 times that you saw Doctor Johnson.
15 A. About two or three times.
16 Q. When were those other two times?
17 A. Before, after. I remember once she came and,
18 you know, give that. Oh, one other time she came and
19 give her the herbs. She brought herbs.
20 Q. How much time would Doctor Johnson spend with
21 Lisa when you were there? What was the longest period
22 of time she would be there?
23 A. About a half hour.
24 Q. And two or three times?
25 A. Something like that.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
46
1 Q. Okay. Did you ever see her -- other than the
2 herbs and that particular shot, did she ever give her
3 any pills?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you recall any pills?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Anything other than that shot?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was that it for Doctor Johnson's visits
10 there? Is that why Doctor Johnson is mentioned in that
11 report?
12 A. Yeah, probably.
13 Q. Was that shot right around the last time you
14 spent any time with Lisa?
15 A. Yeah, towards the end when I was there.
16 Q. And that report goes to the 1st of December?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And do you know why you weren't asked to do
19 any more watching of Lisa between then and the 5th of
20 December?
21 A. As far as I know, it was because I had some
22 other duties that I had to go and do.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. No other reason that I know.
25 Q. Who was Len Farney at the time?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
47
1 A. A person I met some days ago. He is from the
2 Church of Scientology International. I think he is
3 from Los Angeles.
4 Q. Did you talk to him about this Lisa McPherson
5 incident?
6 MR. POLLI: I object to that on
7 privilege.
8 MR. MCGARRY: Is he a lawyer?
9 (Whereupon a discussion was held off the record).
10 BY MR. MCGARRY:
11 Q. Is he a lawyer?
12 A. Actually, I don't know.
13 Q. Did you talk to him in reference to him being
14 a lawyer? Did you seek any advice from him?
15 A. Not advice. He actually told me that I would
16 be--
17 MR. POLLI: Stop. I am still going to
18 object because I don't know what was said. I don't
19 know.
20 MR. MCGARRY: All right, I will just ask
21 her a question around that type of actual discussion.
22 BY MR. MCGARRY:
23 Q. Did you meet with him recently?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Within the last week?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
48
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What day was that?
3 A. It could have been last Thursday or something
4 like that.
5 Q. Were you alone with him?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. MCGARRY: All right, ma'am, that's
8 all the notes that I have and questions I have for you,
9 but the other detectives probably want to follow up on
10 some things that I am sure I neglected to ask you. If
11 you would like a break, we can do that.
12 (Whereupon a discussion was held off the record).
13 EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. ANDREWS:
15 Q. I want to check on your medical background.
16 You said a year and a half of nursing school. Did you
17 put that on your resume to the Church?
18 A. Yes, I put that in my resume.
19 Q. So they are aware of that year and a half of
20 nursing school or whatever?
21 A. Yeah. I mean if somebody would look, they
22 would find that.
23 Q. All right. At the time of this cycle, can
24 you give me your chain of command at the time of the
25 cycle?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
49
1 A. You mean was my direct senior?
2 Q. Yeah.
3 A. My direct senior was Sergio Mora (phonetic).
4 Q. Sergio Mora?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was that in relation to your chaplain status
7 or--
8 A. To the chaplain status, not to the cycle.
9 Q. I would like to know for the cycle.
10 A. Okay, well, the only command thing was
11 basically a reporting to Alain Kartuzinski. The
12 others, I don't really --
13 Q. The organizations in the Church's organize,
14 like in the Navy, would that be very unusual to have
15 all of these people that are taking care of Lisa
16 directly report to the senior? There would be no
17 people in between that?
18 A. That wouldn't be unusual.
19 Q. So it would be usual to report to the senior
20 case supervisor?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. And I assume that on the top of your reports,
23 like on November 21st, where they are titled SNR/C/S,
24 and then FSO, with an arrow back to it, would you
25 explain that?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
50
1 A. Yes, SNR means senior. That's for that. CS,
2 supervisor, the person.
3 Q. So CS is case supervisor. SNR is senior?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And FSO?
6 A. Is Flag service organization. And the arrow
7 means it goes -- arrow means it goes to that person.
8 Q. Your understanding, why would these reports
9 be categorized?
10 A. Because it was an important matter, you know.
11 It's not like the person can have the reports a day or
12 two later, you know.
13 Q. I want to refer to your report on the 21st.
14 You said that Lisa slept about eight hours and you were
15 on the watch at one a.m. and she was sleeping again,
16 and everything seemed normal?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. With Lisa. And then this morning, at about
19 nine thirty a.m., you got her to take all of these
20 vitamins, ten milligrams of Bl, a thousand milligrams
21 of C vitamin, two hundred milligrams of potassium and a
22 hundred milligrams of B6 and then you brought some
23 Calmine (phonetic) besides, and she didn't drink it,
24 and then a large protein shake, which I assume the
25 protein shake would have vitamins?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
51
1 A. No, absolutely not. There was milk, there is
2 it's made with milk. I remember this one is made
3 with some eggs and some protein powder and there were
4 things mixed with mixer, and that's what we call it,
5 protein drink.
6 Q. What I am getting at, everything is okay with
7 Lisa in your report and she is sleeping a lot, and then
8 you give her all these vitamins and everything, and
9 then the next part of your report says she is having
10 lots of trouble, you know. Did it ever dawn on you or
11 did you ever think that maybe she was having a reaction
12 to something that you had given her, that was why she
13 was acting this crazy? Do you know what I am saying?
14 She was okay, you gave her all these items, and now she
15 is not okay, normal.
16 A. Well, she wasn't okay first. When she was
17 sleeping, she was sleeping, you know. I can't say
18 anything about that, but when she was sleeping, she was
19 asleep. She was talking bizarre, like, you know, at
20 different times. I can feel that there is something
21 that is not quite right, okay? And then in the morning
22 there is a differences between, yes, the morning, the
23 afternoon and the evening. It's true, she was never
24 completely right, you know, the same person, you know.
25 Q. The only reason I asked that is that's the
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
52
1 first report that shows up in the records that we have
2 subpoenaed. Now, there is a possibility with the
3 Church records that these have been coming, like, in
4 terms of drafts, they have been coming in different
5 days. You are giving me the impression that you
6 already had stood a watch before this watch and you
7 already know her behavior, because this is the first
8 watch that you do, your only indications that Lisa
9 McPherson, she is sleeping fine and she is okay.
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Now, did you do a watch before the 21st to
12 make up this impression?
13 A. No, absolutely not.
14 Q. Absolutely not?
15 A. No. When I said when she was sleeping, she
16 was also talking at times, you know, and that's what I
17 am saying. It was kind of an indication that if you
18 first arrive there and you see that, you go,
19 (indicating), yeah, I think there is something kind of
20 wrong.
21 Q. In your report on that day, you say that she
22 was non--
23 A. Sequitur.
24 Q. And she said things, saying things like she
25 was going to go somewhere. It says it right here in
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
53
1 the report, she was going to go somewhere.
2 A. All right.
3 Q. If she wanted to go somewhere, would you let
4 her out?
5 A. I don't remember exactly what was said.
6 Q. I will show you what she said. You said she
7 was going to go somewhere. It's right here
8 (indicating). It's not saying -- well, that she was
9 going to go somewhere?
10 A. All right.
11 Q. And then at the (indicating).
12 A. All right. Well, it's like part of the
13 normal things she would say at the time.
14 Q. Well, I mean, if she said that to you, would
15 you let her go? It's either a yes or no for the
16 answer.
17 A. If she would tell me now I am going to go,
18 you know, to the swimming pool, I want to take a walk
19 outside, I would have gone, probably, with her, you
20 know, unless I saw she was really not doing well kind
21 of, you know, taking her clothes off and running -- and
22 going out, I wouldn't, you know, let her go out like
23 this.
24 Q. Let me just go back again. I don't want to
25 belabor this. At the time.you wrote this report and
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
54
1 the behavior that you were writing down of Lisa
2 McPherson, would you allow her to leave? That's what I
3 am asking. Right exactly here, from the time you start
4 describing she is saying she was going somewhere, yes
5 or no, would you allow her to leave?
6 A. The way she was, I don't think so.
7 Q. Thank you. I am not trying to put any blame
8 on you. I understand how you are feeling, okay? Just
9 answer truthfully.
10 A. I don't think so, I wouldn't let her go.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. No.
13 Q. On the 22nd -- I will show you, we just went
14 over the 21st. We went by that, but on the 22nd, there
15 is a report written and we have been told by the Church
16 counsel that this says security and Alphonso, who you
17 have already indicated is a security guard. He has
18 written a report on 11/22/95, at eleven twenty a.m.,
19 and he writes in the report about Lisa and talks about
20 protein shakes, and it says right here, Valerie Demange
21 is still on watch. Now, I don't remember in Mr.
22 McGarry's discussions if we ever discussed the 22nd as
23 having you on watch, but apparently we have
24 documentation that you are on watch.
25 MR. MCGARRY: She said she was.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
55
1 MR. ANDREWS: On the 22nd?
2 MR. MCGARRY: She worked from the 21st
3 to the 22nd.
4 MR. ANDREWS: Okay, but the times are --
5 MR. MCGARRY: I don't know about times.
6 MR. ANDREWS: The times are way off.
7 BY MR. ANDREWS:
8 Q. This is twelve p.m. on the 21st, see, so you
9 were starting at midnight on the 21st and you ran until
10 four o'clock, however long, noon would be twelve hours,
11 okay, and then this would be, now, the next day, at
12 eleven twenty in the morning.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. So it shows you back on watch now. Now, my
15 only -- my understanding -- misunderstanding on this is
16 why Mr. Barcenas would be writing about Lisa McPherson,
17 security guard, and we have no log from you.
18 A. I don't know why.
19 Q. Could we be missing a log?
20 A. Yeah, we could be.
21 Q. All right. Do you remember, and I bring this
22 up because Mr. Barcenas says around one a.m., punched
23 out a person who was being assigned to do the watch.
24 He says Valerie Demange still on watch. Do you
25 remember who that was that wrote that?.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
56
1 A. I don't remember the name of the person.
2 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this, the Scientology
3 security, they are a very professional organization,
4 they have bicycle patrols and everything else, and
5 security, when it shows up at this room at that time
6 when you are there with Alphonso Barcenas, could Lisa
8 A. When was that?
9 Q. This is the 22nd, 11/22/95. At eleven twenty
10 you are on the watch. She has punched somebody out
11 that is going to be on the watch, and Barcenas is a
12 security guard now, and you are there. Can Lisa leave?
13 A. It could have been very dangerous if she
14 would have left, for her sake. She was very violent.
15 Q. Do I take that as a no? That's no, she could
16 not leave? You are saying she was very dangerous?
17 A. Yeah, for her own safety, I don't think we
18 would have let her.
19 Q. Okay. Getting back to the organization, the
20 Church is very organized, security is very organized,
21 and this is just your opinion because you are in the
22 organization as a chaplain?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. And this is a yes or no. Is it very unusual
25 that we would be missing complete days of watches? We
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
57
1 would have at least two watches a day if you worked
2 twelve or sixteen hours, it would be two watches a day,
3 and we are missing fIve, seven complete days with no
4 reports whatsoever. In the Church's organization, if
5 you were confronted with that, would that be unusual?
6 A. Yes,that is, yes.
7 Q. And that would be unusual?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. On November 29th -- I am trying
10 to move quickly -- on November 29th, it's written in
11 here that she was violent for two hours. How did you
12 treat that? You wrote in your report she was violent
13 for two hours. How was that treated?
14 A. Well, if she would start, you know -- my work
15 in this circumstance was to make sure she didn't hurt
16 herself and, of course, if she tries to punch me, I
17 would stick my hand up (indicating). I wouldn't punch
18 her, of course, but I have to defend myself in some
19 way, but mainly it was to protect herself, to make sure
20 she would not hurt herself.
21 Q. So you would have restrained her, tried to
22 restrain her?
23 A. Yeah, if she was trying to punch me.
24 MR. POLLI: Stop for a second. I am
25 going to object to the leading questions. Ask her what
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
58
1 she did and she will tell you what she did.
2 MR. ANDREWS: The problem in the
3 argument here is she doesn't answer the question. I am
4 just sitting back and trying to let her answer the
5 question and she dances around yes or no through
6 several questions, so my question was, she wrote in her
7 report she was violent for two hours --
8 A. That's right.
9 BY MR. ANDREWS:
10 Q. So what did you do in this report for those
11 two hours while she was violent?
12 A. Okay, well --
13 MR. POLLI: Stop. I am going to object
14 to the depiction of her dancing around. We have been
15 here about an hour and a half and she has answered the
16 questions to the best of her ability.
17 MR. MCGAPRY: We can go on without her
18 dancing -- she can answer that question. That's a
19 perfectly --
20 A. Okay, so I am going to give you specific
21 instances. I am not talking, like, generic, because I
22 remember very specific things. Like, for instance, at
23 one point, when she jumped on the bed, you know, and
24 was going to hurt her head, well, I went there and I
25 made sure she didn't. Let's see, the day she tried to
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
59
1 break the window, I went to the window and I grabbed
2 her by here (indicating) and I pulled her arms and sat
3 her on the bed. That's what I did.
4 BY MR. ANDREWS:
5 Q. Just for -- you did this for two hours?
6 A. I said she was violent for two hours. I
7 don't recall exactly what she was doing during that
8 time.
9 Q. Do you know who else was there that time?
10 A. On the 29th?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Sylvia Delavaga.
13 Q. That leads me into Sylvia.
14 A. All right.
15 Q. Mexican -- suppose to be in Mexico, so I
16 assume Mexican decent. Did she speak English?
17 A. She did.
18 Q. So between your French accent and her
19 Spanish, you guys could talk okay?
20 A. Yeah. We didn't talk much in the room,
21 though.
22 Q. Because of the gag rule?
23 A. That's right, but we could understand each
24 other when we spoke.
25 Q. All right. In one of the reports, Rita
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
60
1 Boykin -- do you know her?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. She writes on the 29th in her log -- let me
4 get to it and hand it to you.
5 A. All right.
6 Q. This looks like -- and the only reason I say
7 that, that looks like your handwriting and she used the
8 H--
9 A. The hour.
10 Q. Eight hour thirty, okay, and that's your
11 writing, slept about forty minutes, called to get some
12 instructions. Is that your writing?
13 A. Yeah, that's my writing.
14 Q. Did you put that writing in there at the time
15 this report was written?
16 A. You know what, I can't remember doing that,
17 but it was written.
18 Q. It wouldn't have been recently?
19 A. Absolutely not.
20 Q. Back when you were doing the logs?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Now, twelve thirty here, Rita writes Valerie
23 on, Valerie on, that's you, and I gave her two valerian
24 root (phonetic) capsules, the little gel tablets and
25 two white tablets with about three cups, three-quarters
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
61
1 of a cup of herb tea. Now, do you know where this
2 stuff was coming from physically in the room?
3 A. I remember the herb tablets. I don't
4 remember the rest of it.
5 Q. Do you remember the gel tablets?
6 A. Absolutely not.
7 Q. And not that I am trying to trick you, but
8 the chloral hydrates are gel tablets, the prescription
9 drug, and I am just trying to figure out, she was there
10 and indicates -- now I am trying to find out where they
11 came from, but you don't remember the little gel
12 tablets at all?
13 A. No.
14 Q. How about the valerian, the valerian root
15 capsules?
16 A. Well, it's what we call the herb type, you
17 know. I remember capsules. They were green, with
18 green kind of powder inside, which was herb, that's
19 what I remember, and they were brought by Janis, if I
20 remember right.
21 Q. Okay. Now, let me just try to jog your
22 memory about the gel capsules, because in a lot of the
23 readings I find some people taking care of her would go
24 ahead and break these open and give her -- there was
25 some type of liquid, and they would squeeze it into her
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
62
1 mouth instead of giving her these pills, because
2 apparently she was having trouble swallowing. Do you
3 remember anybody doing that at all, breaking little
4 pills and squeezing them in her throat?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. On the 29th, Rita writes that Valerie
7 wasn't of any use -- I am sorry, not Valerie -- Sylvia
8 hasn't snapped out of it yet, she is very down and very
9 solemn. Could you translate very down and very solemn?
10 A. Well, yes, I mean, I remember once where
11 Sylvia didn't sleep much for quite -- you know, was
12 probably -- she didn't have much sleep for some time,
13 and she -- you know, when somebody has been serious.
15 That's how I would translate it.
16 Q. Did you work watches with Rita Boykin or were
17 you opposite her on the watches?
18 A. I was opposite with her on watches. I don't
19 think I was with her at any time.
20 Q. That's why I said -- thought it was curious,
21 it says Valerie and I gave her medication, but it does
22 have right above it or stuck in between the thing, your
23 indication that she slept about ten minutes, called
24 MLO. And now when you called the MW, who was that?
25 A. Janis.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
63
1 Q. Okay, to get some instructions, okay. Now,
2 when you write that, we go back to the chain of
3 command, okay. To me, again, we talked about Alain
4 Kartuzinski being the person you would report to, but
5 apparently we have Doctor Johnson in the middle of this
6 somehow, according to the way you wrote some
7 instruction from the MW, which is Janis Johnson.
8 A. Right.
9 Q. So my question to you is, is she the one that
10 you are looking to to take care of Lisa Mcpherson?
11 A. No, not entirely, okay? Alain Kartuzinski at
12 each (indicating).
13 Q. Which would be possibly the psychological?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And Janis Johnson --
16 A. Would be more the physical aspect.
17 Q. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense,
18 because Alain Kartuzinski, I think he referred to
19 himself as reverend, so he would be some type of an
20 auditor?
21 A. This is right.
22 Q. You weren't there when Sylvia -- when she
23 became real upset and couldn't work, were you?
24 A. I remember at some point when I was with her
25 she was not doing too good, and I said just go outside
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
64
1 and take a walk and come back when you are doing
2 better, go to sleep, if you want.
3 Q. Rita indicates in her report she thought that
4 Sylvia was crying a lot and upset at poor Lisa. Did
5 you get that impression, too, or did you think it was a
6 physical thing?
7 A. I thought it was a physical thing and she was
8 tired.
9 Q. You mentioned Suzanne Green. Now, is that
10 the Suzanne Schnurrenberger, she used to be
11 Schnurrenberger and her married name is Green?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. S C H N U R R E N B E R G E R.
14 A. Um-hum.
15 Q. That's the Suzanne Schnurrenberger you
16 referred to earlier with Mr. McGarry?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where does she fit into the cycle?
19 A. She was -- the first days when Lisa was in
20 the Fort Harrison, she was with her. I'm arriving
21 later.
22 Q. Like the 21st or something, right? She
23 arrives on the 18th?
24 A. Right, and I think Suzanne was with her in
25 the beginning.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
65
1 Q. Yes. I have a whole bunch -- we have a
2 Suzanne -- Suzanne Reich. I have a whole bunch of
3 reports in the beginning written that said medical or
4 the abbreviated med off manager.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Would that be Suzanne Green?
7 A. Yeah, it would be.
8 Q. So she was -- that's the medical office
9 manager, not officer manager?
10 A. Office manager.
11 Q. Which would be like the clerical things in
12 the medical office, the paperwork and all that?
13 A. Right, right, most of it.
14 Q. She is only there, to your knowledge, in the
15 very beginning?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were you ever there when she was there?
18 A. No, we never crossed.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. I think she left half an hour before I came
21 there.
22 Q. Okay. According to your religion, this whole
23 cycle with Lisa McPherson, what was your understanding?
24 A. My understanding was--I mean, we have some
25 terminology which I am going to have to explain and
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
66
1 use. My understanding of the cycle is that Lisa
2 McPherson was in a psychotic break. Psychotic break is
3 when a person physically goes kind of crazy, right, and
4 my understanding of the psychotic and what -- you know,
5 is that she was brought in to get out of this psychotic
6 break and be able to recover.
7 Q. Okay, now, since you were part of that, what
8 is your understanding of the Church's belief, I guess,
9 or yours, of the treatment for the psychotic break?
10 A. We have something which is called -- well,
11 first off, a person is supposed to be in a quiet
12 environment where they can rest and, you know, get
13 somewhat better, and then the person receives what is
14 called introspection rundown (phonetic), which is a
15 procedure you are assigned to achieve, you know, to get
16 a person out of the psychotic break.
17 Q. To your knowledge, did Lisa ever make it to
18 an introspection rundown?
19 A. From my knowledge, no.
20 Q. Now, I think that your attorney, the Church's
21 attorney, Mr. Abelson (phonetic), used isolation in one
22 of his reports. Is that what you are saying, is that a
23 person is to get the rest and relaxation to get out of
24 this psychotic break would be isolated or --
25 A. Well, there are two aspects, there is the
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
67
1 isolation factor and getting through this
2 introspection.
3 Q. Okay, so it would be safe to say your
4 knowledge is that Lisa never made it to the
5 introspection rundown, she passed away in the isolation
6 phase?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In the treatment?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You mentioned earlier that Doctor Johnson was
11 not responsible, that a doctor would be called there?
12 A. Here is my knowledge of that. Doctor Johnson
13 is not Doctor Johnson, as far as I know, because she is
14 not licensed. I know that. So she would have -- you
15 know, for any -- I mean, if there is an administration
16 of something, it has to be, you know, a medical doctor.
17 Q. Did you refer to her as Doctor Johnson?
18 A. No. She is Janis Johnson.
19 Q. The only reason I referred to her that way
20 was because Rita Boykin has in her report Doctor
21 Johnson visited. That's why I am using that. You knew
22 her as Janis Johnson?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Did there -- whenever you were there, to your
25 knowledge, do you know if a real licensed medical
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
68
1 doctor ever visited Lisa?
2 A. No.
3 Q. If Lisa needed a doctor, and we are all
4 adults so we could look at somebody and say this person
5 needs a doctor, who would call that doctor?
6 A. Janis would.
7 Q. Okay, being the medical liaison officer?
8 A. Exactly.
9 Q. Let me just ask you, I have one more last
10 question, it's been learned that after Lisa passed away
11 on December 5th, okay, which was late in the evening,
12 somewhere there, December 6, that everybody that was
13 involved with Lisa was called to a meeting.
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. Were you present at that meeting?
16 A. I was.
17 Q. Can you tell me--
18 A. It wasn't a meeting. I was called there. I
19 mean, there were people, but it was not like a kind of
20 meeting. I was asked questions, and I was asked to
21 write a report of what happened during the time I was
22 there.
23 Q. Who asked you to write the report?
24 A. Marcus Quirino.
25 Q. Can you spell that last name?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
69
1 A. I think it's Q U I R I N O.
2 Q. And what is his job at the Church?
3 A. He is -- okay, let me think. He is over the
4 delivery of counseling and training of courses and
5 counseling.
6 Q. Okay, does he have a title?
7 A. Yeah, he is a deputy. He was at the time,
8 deputy.
9 Q. He is not anymore?
10 A. What is his -- now he is what we call the
11 organization official.
12 Q. Okay, but he was a deputy?
13 A. Deputy chief officer.
14 Q. And is that a Flag?
15 A. I am sorry?
16 Q. Is that a Flag land base?
17 A. Yes, Flag organization.
18 Q. He is way up, pretty high up in the
19 organization?
20 A. That's right, he was.
21 Q. Okay, now, I did do some reading in the
22 Source Magazine. I found that a Debbie Cook was the
23 captain.
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Is she over this Marcus Quirino or was he
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
70
1 over her?
2 A. She is over.
3 She is the top in Clearwater?
4 Yeah.
5 Q. Okay, and so he was just underneath her, so
6 he reported to her?
7 A. Actually, not. There is another person that
8 we call the chief, so just a deputy.
9 Q. I am sorry, okay, just like we have.
10 A. Right.
11 Q. Do you know who that was at the time?
12 A. Don Jason.
13 Q. Don Jason?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. Now, would Mr. Kartuzinski answer to Marcus
16 Quirino, or would Marcus be Alain Kartuzinski's senior?
17 A. He would.
18 Q. Do you know, would it be possible for you to
19 try to remember and name the people at that meeting?
20 A. The people I saw there, Janis was there,
21 Sylvia was there, I remember her.
22 MR. POLLI: Slowly.
23 A. Alain Kartuzinski was there, Marcus Quirino
24 was there.
25 MR. POLLI: Slow down.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
71
1 A. I saw the captain.
2 BY MR. ANDREWS:
3 Q. Debbie Cook?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. And my understanding, she is a lady with
6 blond hair?
7 A. That's right. Don Jason was there.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. Suzanne Green was there, as well as Laura
10 Arrunada, Heather Pietzold.
11 Q. Okay, that's good, and just tell me what the
12 purpose of the meeting was, your understanding of the
13 purpose of the meeting.
14 A. To get some data, to get some, you know,
15 information. I didn't know why I was there. I didn't
16 know what happened at the time.
17 Q. You come to this meeting and you don't even
18 know Lisa had died?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you told at this meeting that Lisa died?
21 A. No, I wasn't told at this meeting, I was just
22 asked some questions, and then I was told to go to the
23 medical office, so on my way to the medical office I
24 meet Janis Johnson, and I asked her, I said, well, what
25 is going on, where is Lisa, how is she doing, and
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
72
that's when she told me.
Q. What did she tell you?
A. Well, she told me that she passed away. I
asked her what happened and she said, well, we don't
know exactly.
Q. Did anybody ever talk about quarantine to you
at that meeting?
A. No, I don't know what that is.
Q. It means to be all put together, that there
was a possibility that Lisa died of meningitis, so that
everyone that had contact with her would be
quarantined. They would have to stay together in one
place until they found out they were okay.
A. Yes, actually, yes, but it was later on that
night. I went to the medical office and I was, like,
well, you know, what do we do now, and they said, well,
you have to go in quarantine. I heard something about
this meningitis or something. I don't know who told me
that, but, okay, I knew why I was there. Why did she
die, was there anything, you know --
Q. Infectious disease?
A. Exactly.
Q. Who did you turn your report in to?
A. Marcus Quirino.
Q. He tells you to write it and you turn it in
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
73
1 to him?
2 A. That's right.
3 MR. ANDREWS: I don't have anything
4 further. Thank you.
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. STROPE:
7 Q. I just have a couple of things. It's going
8 to be kind of fragmented. I have been taking notes, so
9 I won't cover a lot. I watched your reaction and I get
10 the impression that this really bothers you.
11 A. I can say that probably the whole thing
12 bothered me.
13 Q. The whole thing bothered you?
14 A. Well, you know, it's sad. You know, just --
15 Q. It's hard to take care of someone and then
16 have them pass away.
17 A. Exactly.
18 Q. You became attached?
19 A. Somewhat.
20 Q. What could have been done differently here?
21 What could have been done to stop this from happening?
22 A. Looking at the cycle, I think, well, if she
23 had had a medical examination, you know, at the time,
24 you know, probably something may have been found that
25 later could be done.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
74
1 Q. So if she was given some medical attention?
2 In your opinion, was there a time when it passed from
3 being a psychological -- psychological illness to a
4 medical illness?
5 A. Actually, not, not from what I observed.
6 What I said and what keeps true for me is that all the
7 things I saw, which, you know, could have been the
8 result of people, something could have been medical,
9 you know. I could explain that at the time by, you
10 know, the fact she was not sleeping and she was not
11 eating too much and these kinds of things. She looked
12 tired, but, you know, she would sleep two hours a
13 night, you are tired.
14 Q. We all take care of people at one time or
15 another, children or parents that are ill. You do
16 things like take their temperature, make sure they are
17 sleeping right.
18 A. Right.
19 Q. Were those things being done? Did somebody
20 say, well, maybe she has got a temperature? Did
21 anybody check her vital signs for temperature? Did you
22 see anybody come and do that? That would be the
23 common-sense thing to do, I guess.
24 A. This is right. This is right. I don't
25 remember that, that somebody did that. When Janis
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
75
1 came, I don't remember her taking her temperature, for
2 example.
3 Q. We have one report -- and I am not going
4 through the reports, you have been through enough of
5 that -- where Janis says she measured her respiration.
6 Do you know what that is?
7 A. Yes, that is true. I think after the shot,
8 what you call that, injection, yeah, she did. I
9 remember that, now I remember that. She said because,
10 you know, when you give some magnesium to somebody, you
11 have to verify, as it is relaxing the muscles, you want
12 to make sure, you know, it's not going to create
13 problems.
14 Q. Did she use a stethoscope when she listened?
15 That's how doctors do it.
16 A. No, I think it was simply by counting, you
17 know (indicating).
18 Q. Did she take her temperature?
19 A. I don't remember that. I don't remember if
20 she did.
21 Q. Now, this injection, you don't know what that
22 was?
23 A. My impression was it was magnesium.
24 Q. And the chloral hydrate, you know nothing
25 about that?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
76
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you see the container that the chloral
3 hydrate was in?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know what a prescription bottle is, a
6 brown bottle from a drugstore?
7 A. I mean, I know what this is.
8 Q. Did you ever see one?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Are you familiar with a doctor named Doctor
11 Minkoff?
12 A. I heard the name. I don't know him
13 personally.
14 Q. You never met him?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever call him to get any advice?
17 A. Janis called once, but, I mean, it was not
18 from the room, but nearby. There was a housekeeping
19 office and there was a phone there, and she was on the
20 phone with, I think, a doctor. I didn't know it was
21 Doctor Minkoff at the time, but she was on the phone
22 with a medical doctor.
23 Q. What was that conversation?
24 A. I remember it was about the injection. She
25 was trying to get the okay, I think, to do it.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
77
1 Q. So this doctor gave her the okay?
2 A. As far as I know.
3 Q. And she later told you it was Doctor Minkoff.
4 How did you know?
5 A. I just heard it, you know. I just heard it
6 recently. I have no idea if it was a medical doctor.
7 Q. Have you talked to Janis recently about/that
8 conversation?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Have you talked to Janis at all about your
11 testimony today?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. Other than your attorney -- and I
14 don't want to get into any privileged conversations --
15 other than your attorney, is there anybody else that
16 you have discussed your testimony with?
17 A. Well, what is this testimony?
18 Q. Your being here today, your account of what
19 happened. This is what this is.
20 A. My senior.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. Because I was not going to be there, so I had
23 to tell him, I am going to have a--I don't know the
24 word.
25 Q. I am talking about now--I am going to try
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
78
1 to make this as simple as I can. Before today -- today
2 is called a deposition.
3 A. All right.
4 Q. Before today, other than your attorney, have
5 you talked about your deposition with anybody else?
6 MR. POLLI: Wait a second. The contents
7 of it, because she --
8 MR. STROPE: I know.
9 BY MR. STROPE:
10 Q. Of the contents of today's deposition, have
11 you talked it over with anyone other than your
12 attorney?
13 A. Like the reports and things?
14 Q. Yeah.
15 A. Yeah, with -- I don't remember what his name
16 is.
17 Q. Len Farney?
18 A. Yeah.
19 MR. MCGARRY: I don't want to get into
20 that. I know he is not an attorney. We don't need to
21 get into that. Anyone else.
22 MR. POLLI: You can ask how long.
23 BY MR. STROPE:
24 Q. How long did you talk to him?
25 A. It was about twenty minutes, half an hour.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
79
1 Q. Did you ever talk to anyone named Laura about
2 your conversation?
3 A. Laura?
4 Q. Laura.
5 MR. ANDREWS: Vaughn.
6 BY MR. STROPE:
7 Q. Do you know Laura Vaughn?
8 A. Who is she? I don't know this name.
9 MR. ANDREWS: So you didn't talk to her?
10 A. No.
11 MR. STROPE: Okay.
12 BY MR. STROPE:
13 Q. You said in your report, these reports, that
14 Lisa told you that she had exhibited bad manners that
15 resulted in bad consequences?
16 A. That was one of the things.
17 Q. Tell me about that. I don't understand that.
18 A. Sometimes she was, like, you know, I am
19 ashamed. She would change reaction very often, and at
20 some point she said that. She said, well, you know, I
21 did some bad things, and what you just said.
22 Q. So she considered -- in your opinion, was she
23 considering what was happening to her mentally or
24 physically or whatever was the result of something that
25 she did?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
80
1 A. At that time, yes.
2 Q. And what did you define as being bad
3 consequences? What was she talking about?
4 A. My understanding of it was that she did
5 something that she felt bad about. I don't know what
6 it was. It could have been to friends, it could have
7 been to family, and she felt bad about that, and
8 because it had bad consequences for these people or
9 whatever.
10 Q. For those people or for her?
11 A. I thought it was for those people.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Maybe for her, too. She never explained
14 anything. It would just come as a sentence.
15 Q. And you said earlier that OSA, the Office of
16 Special Affairs took Lisa to the Fort Harrison from the
17 hospital after the accident. Do you know who that was?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How did you know that OSA had, in fact, taken
20 her?
21 A. Well, I was told at some point. I think I
22 asked.
23 Q. That's all right if you can't remember,
24 that's fine.
25 A. I can't remember exactly.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
81
1 Q. Are you familiar with a Church term,
2 committee of evidence?
3 A. Yes, I am Church.
4 Q. Was there a committee of evidence in this
5 case?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. You never testified or you never gave written
8 reports other than that meeting the day Lisa died?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Did you write any reports after that?
11 A. No, I did not.
12 Q. You testified, you said earlier that Lisa was
13 trying to break the window.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Do you know why she was doing that?
16 A. Well, because she was -- I don't know, I
17 couldn't tell. She was violent. She was, you know --
18 it was part of the whole thing, I mean, when she was
19 violent.
20 Q. Was there a telephone in this room?
21 A. No.
22 Q. If you needed help, how would you call out?
23 We have had other people that --
24 A. No, I didn't know.
25 Q. So if you needed help for security from
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
82
1 Alphonso or anybody else that worked security, how
2 would you--
3 A. I would -- there was a person in the office
4 just in the next room. There was somebody there.
5 Q. A housekeeper?
6 A. No, the other side.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. With some kind of office.
9 Q. So there was an office there?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. We also had someone testify that at the
12 beginning of their shift, when you started your shift,
13 you obviously had to know what is going on, what kind
14 of mood Lisa was in, what had gone on, and they were
15 briefed. Did you have that same briefing when you
16 started your shift?
17 A. Yes, but it was the briefing I said before.
18 I was told, you know, that she saw an accident, that
19 she kind of freaked out.
20 Q. I realize that, but, I mean, at the beginning
21 of each of your shifts were you briefed about what
22 happened before your shift?
23 A. Yeah, how is she. Well, the first time I was
24 all the time there, so there wasn't any question. Then
25 after three days I came back on it, and I had had a
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
83
1 briefing and knew what was going on by Mr. Kartuzinski
2 when we had the meeting.
3 Q. So the people that were on the shift before
4 you, they would let you in and then brief you, and then
5 would you carry on with your shift?
6 A. Not all the time. For example, when I
7 arrived at three thirty, and Patricia Stracener was
8 there with the other person, we could get -- you know,
9 I mean, it was clear.
10 Q. Did they know what time you were going to be
11 there or did you knock on the door?
12 A. I opened the door.
13 Q. Was there a security guard posted out front?
14 A. I think so.
15 Q. There was always one out front?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. So regardless if the door was locked, if
18 there was a security guard there, that was kind of
19 apparent?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you -- you said that Lisa was hitting the
22 wall and causing bruises to herself?
23 A. I didn't say she was causing bruises to
24 herself, but she was definitely hitting the walls and
25 bumping into things.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
84
1 Q. What was the last day that you had seen her,
2 the last time you had seen her at all?
3 A. The day of the last report, the 29th, so
4 30th, actually.
5 Q. Tell me her physical condition, then, as you
6 saw her. I know you are not a doctor, but what did you
7 observe?
8 A. She looked tired, kind of exhausted. She had
9 bruises, she did.
10 Q. Where did she have bruises?
11 A. On her hand here, through here (indicating),
12 here (indicating) and on her legs.
13 Q. Did she have anything that looked like open
14 sores or anything?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Her hands, how were her hands?
17 A. There were bruises on it, but it wasn't
18 sores. There was not any cut or anything.
19 Q. Were there any, like, spots or anything,
20 bruises on her fingers or her hands?
21 A. I think there was a bruise here (indicating),
22 but it was -- I don't remember, like, something else in
23 that, a cut, you know, anything else.
24 Q. Did she ever scratch you? Did she ever cause
25 you any physical harm?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
85
1 A. Yeah, she bite me.
2 Q. She bit you?
3 A. No, bite me -- yeah.
4 Q. Okay, but she never scratched you?
5 A. Not scratch, no.
6 Q. Did she ever bite herself?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did she ever scratch herself?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Of these people that were on these various
11 watches, who was the primary -- who spent the most time
12 with Lisa?
13 A. I mean, I guess I was one of them, probably,
14 but I don't know who was later, you see. I have no
15 date on that, and there are five days after that.
16 Q. We have also gotten testimony from
17 individuals who were there at times when Lisa became
18 violent and they found it necessary to physically
19 restrain her, hold her down. Did you have to do that?
20 Did you ever have to physically hold her down?
21 A. Well, yeah, when she tried to, you know--
22 when she tried to break the window and when I brought
23 her down, she started to run back, right, and I had to
24 restrain her. I mean, I was afraid she would break the
25 window and she would cut herself.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
86
1 Q. She was five-foot nine and you are a little
2 shorter than that. Did you do that yourself, did you
3 restrain her yourself?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You never had to request anybody to help you?
6 A. Well, no. I mean, I requested later, I mean,
7 that night, I called, you know. I said, well, I think
8 we should put two people.
9 Q. Who did they send?
10 A. Annie Morer (phonetic) came, but she came
11 shortly, and Mr. Kellerhous, he came.
12 Q. Did he help you secure her?
13 A. Well, she tried to punch him. She tried to
14 take his pen (indicating) and so he stopped her.
15 That's how that happened.
16 Q. What happened then? Did she calm down, did
17 she--
18 A. Not quite. I mean, right after the new
19 person came in, she slapped her.
20 Q. Was there ever an instance where you could do
21 -- it's a big problem, but mental hospitals do that,
22 where they strap them down. Did you have to do that?
23 A. Well, the night when I arrived on the 26th,
24 for some time, yes, but I was trying not to do that,
25 you know, as much as possible to not put force on her.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
87
1 Q. A lot of people think that's cruel and
2 unusual, but I think it's sometimes easier.
3 MR POLLI: Define strap her down.
4 MR. STROPE: I am talking about big
5 straps that --
6 A. No, no.
7 BY MR. STROPE:
8 Q. What did you mean by that? I am talking
9 about just --
10 A. Well, when we arrived -- when I arrived, the
11 persons were holding her with their hand because she
12 was trying to hit them.
13 Q. Who, how many people?
15 Q. This is when she arrived?
16 A. When I arrived.
17 Q. When you arrived?
18 A. It was on the 26th at night, three thirty in
19 the morning.
20 Q. That is when she was violent?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Do you know why? Was she just angry? Did
23 she want to leave? Why were they having to hold her
24 down?
25 A. She didn't want to leave, but she was trying
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
88
1 to hit them with her feet and her arms.
2 Q. What was she saying, get me out of here,
3 leave me alone?
4 A. No. I was not there before, but when I
5 arrived, let's see -- I don't remember. She was saying
6 something like, saying that she was having a bad hair
7 day and stuff.
8 Q. You mentioned that Sylvia lost it, she kind
9 of got hysterical, started crying.
10 A. I have never seen that. I saw that she was
11 at some point, she was not -- she was a bit
12 (indicating), you know. It was getting on her nerves.
13 Q. She just didn't want to be there?
14 A. Well, yeah, so I told her to, you know, to
15 take a walk, you know, and go to sleep, whatever.
16 Q. Did she go out and talk to somebody and come
17 back?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. And you also mentioned or someone mentioned
20 that--and if you don't know, tell me--that a
21 security guard had to punch somebody out? Was that
22 term used?
23 MR. ANDREWS: It was Lisa punched a
24 person out. Security was there.
25
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
89
1 BY MR. STROPE:
2 Q. That's the only time you ever saw a physical
3 altercation between Lisa and this security guard?
4 A. Well, the only time was when Paul Kellerhous
5 came in the room and she took his pen and tried to, you
6 know, punch him or whatever, and he had to stop her.
7 That's the only time any security came in the room.
8 Q. Okay; I am almost done here. During the time
9 of this watch, there was a time when, it may or may not
10 have been obvious to you, you can tell me if it wasn't,
11 this thing went from a mental illness to maybe a
12 physical illness. Did you realize maybe she had some
13 problems?
14 A. I did realize she was -- she had lost weight
15 and that she was tired, that I realized. That came to
16 my mind that she had something physical for sure.
17 Q. Did anybody at that time say maybe we should
18 get her some medical help, a doctor, a hospital?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did she have access to her family? Did
21 somebody call her family to see about taking her to a
22 medical hospital?
23 A. No.
24 Q. So she didn't have access to her family or
25 her family didn't have access to her? Was her family
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
90
1 notified she was ill?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. That would be something you wouldn't know?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Your seniors would have to do that?
6 A. That's right. The only reason I was there
7 was to make sure she was okay.
8 Q. But there was a time when you realized there
9 was something wrong?
10 A. I mostly realized later. I said, well, she
11 is tired, it's true, you know, but it wasn't like such
12 a, you know, a point at the time where I thought, oh,
13 this is bizarre, because it wasn't bizarre. It was
14 like, yeah, she looked tired, but, you know, she was
15 not sleeping much, so it wasn't, like, bizarre, you
16 see?
17 Q. Do you know if she lost a lot of weight? Was
18 that when she wasn't eating?
19 A. She did lose some weight. It wasn't --
20 Q. She weighed a hundred and eight pounds when
21 she died, so that's a lot of weight loss.
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. You didn't notice that?
24 A. No. I don't know what happened in the last
25 five days.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
91
1 Q. Okay. Did her senior, Bennetta Slaughter,
2 ever come?
3 A. No. I know -- I don't know she never came,
4 but when I came, she never came.
5 Q. Did she call to see how she was doing?
6 A. No, not that I know.
7 Q. I believe you said that in the beginning you
8 kept her -- and I think you said the doors were locked
9 because she was mentally unstable, you didn't want her
10 running into traffic.
11 A. No, the door was never locked.
12 Q. But you wouldn't let her leave?
13 A. Well, yeah, when she was so disturbed and she
14 was taking her clothes off, too.
15 Q. Along about the end of November, the
16 beginning of December, we have testimony she was so
17 weak she had a hard time walking. Was she a threat to
18 leave then?
19 A. When was that?
20 Q. The first of December, last of November. As
21 the days went on, she became weak. Was that when the
22 procedure changed?
23 A. I don't recall.
24 Q. Was she still free to leave?
25 A. She never tried to leave, so I don't know
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
92
1 why.
2 Q. Okay. When Doctor Johnson gave her a shot,
3 she gave it to her in the hip?
4 A. (Indicating).
5 Q. Did she say what that was for?
6 A. Well, she told me it was to relax the muscles
7 and it was magnesium.
8 Q. Was that shot given after the phone
9 conversation with the doctor?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Shortly thereafter?
12 A. Shortly after.
13 Q. Did someone go pick up a prescription or how
14 did that work with the doctor?
15 A. I think Janis was organizing the whole thing.
16 Q. Her being the MW and --
17 A. Right.
18 Q. When did you first realize that your reports
19 had to go to Alain Kartuzinski or that he was in charge
20 of this?
21 A. I was probably told at the very beginning,
22 but I knew it was the senior case supervisor, and I
23 knew it would be the one supervising.
24 Q. Did he periodically stop in and see how you
25 were doing?
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
93
1 A. No.
2 Q. He never came to the room?
3 A. I never saw him in the room. I saw him on
4 the 26th when we had a meeting.
5 Q. What was the procedure for getting the
6 reports to him?
7 A. What I remember is once I gave it to
8 security, they got it to him, and once to his
9 communicator, the person that worked with him. There
10 was a Lacie Spencer.
11 Q. Were you around the room when they took Lisa
12 to the hospital?
13 A. No, I wasn't.
14 Q. You didn't have any knowledge of that trip?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You don't know who took her or anything like
17 that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you ever talk to Janis about that?
20 A. Yeah, it was actually after that happened,
21 right, not the same night.
22 Q. What was the gist of that conversation?
23 A. I think I asked her what she died from, what
24 was it, you know, and she mentioned something like
25 blood clot or something.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
94
1 Q. Did she mention the trip to the hospital?
2 A. She mentioned a trip to the doctor, to a
3 doctor, and that actually arrived to the doctor and
4 then the doctor said she should go on to the hospital,
5 and I think she died on the way to the hospital.
6 Q. Did she say she knew she died on the way to
7 the hospital or she found out when she got --
8 A. The words of Janis on that were she was
9 declared dead when she arrived at the hospital.
10 Q. Did she say whose idea it was to take her to
11 the hospital?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Who made that decision, that she should be
14 moved to the hospital? Does Janis have the power to
15 make that decision?
16 A. It was the medical doctor who said that.
17 Q. Who would have said it's okay to take her
18 from the Fort Harrison to the hospital? Is that some
19 decision that had to be made by a senior?
20 A. I don' tknow.
21 Q. Anybody could do that on their own?
22 A. I don't know. A medical official, you know,
23 probably.
24 Q. Would Mr. Kartuzinski have to do that?
25 A. I don't know that he would have to okay that.
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
95
1 Q. But would he have to have knowledge?
2 A. He would have knowledge of it. That he would
3 have to okay that, I don't think. It's not a point --
4 it's not the same thing, you see.
5 MR. STROPE: I don't have anything
6 else. Thanks.
7 FURTHER EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. ANDREWS:
9 Q. I have a real quick question. Have you ever
10 participated in one of these cycles before or since
11 Lisa, you know?
12 A. No.
13 MR. ANDREWS: Okay, thank you.
14 MR. POLLI: Thank you very much.
15 _________________________________________
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
96
1 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
2
I, the undersigned authority, certify that
3 VALERIE DEMANGE appeared before me and was duly sworn.
4 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 30th
day of March, 1997.
5
6
7
(signature)
8 SHERYL M. WILLIAMS
Notary Public - State of Florida
9 My Commission No. CC 294742
My Commission Expires: 07/13/97
10
11 (notary seal)
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
97
1 STATE OF FLORIDA )
COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
2
I, SHERYL M. WILLIAMS, Registered
3 Professional Reporter, certify that I was authorized to
and did stenographically report the statement of
4 VALERIE DEMANGE, that the transcript is a true
and complete record of my stenographic notes.
5
I further certify that I am not a relative,
6 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties,
nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
7 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.
8
Dated this 30th day of March, 1997.
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
KANABAY & KANABAY - OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
