Sworn Statement of Emma Louise Schamehorn

Date:April 25, 1997




DATE:                      April 25, 1997.

BEFORE:                    Donna M. Kanabay, RPR, RMR
                           Notary Public, Court Reporter. 

PLACE:                     State Attorney's Office
                           Criminal Justice Center
                           Clearwater, Florida

                           Assistant State Attorney
                           Attorney for State of Florida.

                           Agent Lee Strope

                           Sergeant Wayne Andrews
                           Clearwater PD.

                           MR. ROBERT POLLI
                           101 E. Kennedy Blvd.
                           Tampa, FL 33602
                           Attorney for Mr. Houghton

    TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT, (813) 224-9500
   ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER, (813) 821-3320

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              INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS  
                                        PAGE LINE

DIRECT EXAMINATION - Mr. McGarry           3   20
EXAMINATION - Sgt. Andrews                37   10
EXAMINATION - Agent Strope                47   15
EXAMINATION - Sgt. Andrews                58   10
EXAMINATION - Agent Strope                60   17
Reporter's Certificate                    64    1

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EMMA LOUISE SCHAMEHORN, The witness herein, being first duly sworn was examined and testified as follows:

MR. McGARRY: It's customary for you to --

MR. POLLI: Want to have her state her name?

MR. McGARRY: Yeah.

THE WITNESS: Emma Louise Schamehorn, S C H AMEHORN.

MR. POLLI: My name is Robert Polli, and I represent Ms. Schamehorn. And we're here today pursuant to a subpoena that we received from the State Attorney's office. I have had discussions with Ms. Schamehorn about the protections that are provided in Florida Statute 914.04. She understands what those protections are. She understands what her responsibilities are. And we are ready to proceed accordingly. Thank you.


Q. Emma, my name's Mark McGarry. We're going to be asking you some questions in reference to the circumstances surrounding the death of Lisa McPherson around November, December of 1995.

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Before I do, I'd like to get some background information from you, if I could. What's your birthdate?

A. X, 1926.

Q. Okay. And how long have you lived in Clearwater?

A. Ten years.

Q. All right. And where do you live?

A. At in Hacienda Gardens.

Q. Okay. That is owned by the Church?

A. Yes.

Q. And how long have you been a member of the Church?

A. Since 1968.

Q. Since 1968?

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. Wow. Long time.

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. And have you -- where have you lived prior to living in Clearwater?

A. In Alberta -- I was born in Alberta, Canada. And just prior -- about ten years prior to coming down here, I was in Vancouver, British Columbia.

Q. Is that where you became involved in the Church, up there?

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A. No. I actually was introduced in Edmonton, Alberta.

Q. Okay. And did you move to Clearwater because of the Church?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So I take it you're a member -- - - staff member?

A. Yes.

Q. And so approximately 1986 or 87, somewhere along in there, you moved to Clearwater?

A. April the 23rd, 1987.

Q. And why did they move you to Clearwater?

A. The -- when I joined the Sea Organization.

Q. Sea Org?

A. Yes. This was the base that I was asked to come to and, I agreed.

Q. What -- a little bit about your background. What was your background? Did you have a profession that you did before you joined the Church?

A. Yes. My husband and I owned a small aviation business in Alberta for twenty years, and we separated, and I worked in various offices, secretary, receptionist - -

Q. Do you have any medical training?

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A. Not specifically, no.

Q. Nursing, anything like that? (Whereupon a discussion was held off the record).


Q. What is your current title at the Church right now?

A. I'm the Public Medical Liaison Officer.

Q. And what exactly does that mean? What is that you do?

A. I liaise (sic) between the public people who come to receive services at the Church and with the medical profession, or any help that they might need, medically.

Q. So you hook them up - -

A. Right.

Q. -- wherever they need to go --

A. Sorry, sir?

Q. You hook them up with where they need to go if they have a problem.

A. Right.

Q. And the Church pays for their medical services?

A. No. The public people pay for their own. The church pays for the people who work for the Church.

Q. I understand. Okay. And how long have you done that job?

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A. Approximately eight years.

Q. So you've been in that same position for eight years?

A. (Nods head).

Q. So you--

A. Yes

Q. -- must know most of the local doctors around the Church.

A. Quite a few of them.

Q. So that was the same position you held back in November of 1995?

A. Right.

Q. Is there more than one person that does that service for the Church, or are you there by yourself?

A. There's a medical officer for the staff, or crew-

Q. Okay. Who is that now?

A. That is Rosalia Moranden.

Q. Okay. And who was it in 95, if you recall?

A. There was two at that time: Janice Johnson and Judy Colesberry Webber.

Q. All right. And they -- neither of them do that any more?

A. No.

Q. Do you know why?

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A. They've moved to other posts for -- one was sent for more training, the other was sent for - - to fill an area that was needed in another part of the Church.

Q. Okay. Which one was sent -- which? Which one was sent for more training?

A. Judy Webber was sent for further training in Church matters, not medical things; and Janice Johnson was moved to the staff college, where the staff is educated.

Q. Okay. Did Janice Johnson's move coincide at all with this unfortunate incident that occurred with Lisa McPherson?

A. You mean timewise?

Q. Mm-hmm.

A. Trying to recall just when she was moved. I can't say that for sure.

Q. Okay. Did you know Lisa McPherson prior to her being - - prior to her stay at the cabana section?

A. No, sir, I did not.

Q. When was the first time you met Lisa McPherson?

A. That was at the Morton Plant Hospital.

Q. Okay. So you were there the day she wrecked her car?

A. Yes. I didn't understand -- I didn't realize that she wrecked her car, but I was there.

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Q. Okay. Well, that was why she was at the hospital.

A. I see. Okay.

Q. Along with taking her clothes off and running around the street.

A. That part, I heard about.

Q. And how did you come to be down there at Morton Plant on that day?

A. I was beeped on my beeper, that there was a public person at the hospital that needed to be attended to, or - - it was my job to check in on and see if they needed help.

Q. Okay. Who beeped you, do you know?

A. No. I don't recall.

Q. Okay. How did you get down there? Did you go by yourself?

A. No. My son-in-law drove me in his car.

Q. And his name is --

A. Nick McFarland.

Q. Did he go in with you?

A. No, he dropped me off at the door.

Q. Is he a member of the organization also?

A. Yes.

Q. Is he from Canada? ~

A. Yes.

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Q. When you arrived, who else from the Church was there besides you, if anybody?

A. Right. There was -- in the waiting room or in the hallway outside the waiting room, was Humberto Fontana; Judy Fontana; I believe, Annie Mora - -


A. Right. And I can recall a few other people, but l can't recall their names.

Q. That's quite a crew. And the purpose of your being there was what?

A. My being there?

Q. Yes, ma'am.

A. To see what this person required; what help she needed. Just basically to fulfill my function as a medical liaison officer.

Q. Who is Humberto Fontana? What is his position with the Church?

A. At that time, he was a member of OSA, the Office of Special Affairs. I'm not sure of his exact position, his exact title.

Q. What about his wife?

A. I believe she was the legal officer at that time.

Q. So he was down there, too?

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Is Humberto Fontana - - is he with the - - is he still with Flag or is he somewhere else?

A. No, I believe he's out in Los Angeles now.

Q. Oh, he is? When did he move?

A. About a month ago, approximately.

Q. And who is Annie Mora?

A. She's also on the Office of Special Affairs staff, but I'm not sure of her title either.

Q. Is she around still or did she move?

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. She's around?

A. Yes.

Q. She's still at Flag?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that what you call Clearwater? Flag?

A. Right.

Q. Were you able to talk with Lisa when she arrived at Morton Plant?

A. No, I didn't speak to her personally, myself.

Q. You didn't?

A. No.

Q. Did any members - - other members of your church --

A. Yes.

Q. - - speak to her?

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A. Yes. I was shown to her room, and she was being spoken to by a nurse, I understand a psychiatric nurse. Excuse me a minute. My -- names sometimes slip my mind. The senior CS. Who is that?

Q. Alain Karduzinski?

A. Yeah. Alain Karduzinski was in the room with her, and I think one other person was. I'm not -- it might have been Dr. DeCuypere, but I'm not sure.

MR. POLLI: Spell it for her.

THE WITNESS: D e, capital C U Y P E R E.


Q. Dr. DeCuypere, is he a --

A. It's a woman. Jeannie DeCuypere.

Q. Oh, it's a "she"?

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. Is she a member of the Church?

A. Yes. She's a church member. Not of staff, but she is -- she's not on the staff.

Q. Oh, okay. Is she a doctor for Morton Plant?

A. No. She's a local chiropractor.

Q. Oh, okay. So you're not aware of what Lisa said at that time, or what they said to her?

A. No. I have no --

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Q. Did you have any other involvement at the Morton Plant Hospital?

A. No.

Q. Do you know what was the plan from there?

A. Well, shortly after Judy Colesberry Webber arrived -- Oh, just to back up a bit - -

Q. Sure.

A. - - the -- the nurse who was speaking to her asked her if he night speak to her alone, which was fine, so we stepped back out into the hallway, the waiting room area. And at that point, Judy Webber arrived, and she went back - - she said that she was familiar with the doctor, and that she would talk to the doctor. And then shortly after, she came out and said that she was being released. So at that point, we all left with her.

Q. When you say "we all left," everybody - -

A. Well --

Q. -- got in the same car or --

A. No.

Q. -- various cars or --

A. We divided up into cars. I rode with Mr. Karduzinski and Lisa back to the Ft. Harrison.

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Q. Did - - were you privy to the decision as to why she was driven back to the hotel rather than her home? -

A. No. I was just instructed that we would go in this car, someone else would go in another car.

Q. So did Mr. Karduzinski indicate to you why he was taking Lisa to the hotel rather than to her

A. No.

Q. Did he tell you where he was taking her, as far as where in the hotel he was taking her?

A. No. Not -- it wasn't till we arrived at the hotel that we were told of which room she would go into.

Q. And what -- and who told you that?

A. As far as I can remember, it was Janet Herring. I believe she met us at the - - at the entrance of the hotel, and said to go with her to room so-and-so.

Q. Where was this room, by the way?

A. It was in the cabanas, what we call the cabanas, at the back of the hotel.

Q. And did you assist Lisa to that room?

A. Yes.

Q. Lisa had very few things, if anything, correct?

A. By "things," you mean --

Q. She didn't have anything but her clothes on her back, correct?

A. Right. At that point.

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Q. At that point. Did she have a purse or anything else, or do you remember?

A. She must have had a purse, but I can't recall.

Q. Okay. Did she, at some time, gather her -- some other items from her home to bring with her for her stay at the hotel?

A. No. They were brought to the hotel for her.

Q. They were?

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. Do you know who did that?

A. I understand -- I didn't see them delivered, but I understand that they were brought by Bennetta - - I forgot the last name -- where she lives.

Q. Slaughter?

A. Yes.

Q. Bennetta Slaughter?

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. Okay.

A. Whether she actually brought them herself, I can't say, because I didn't see them delivered. But I overheard someone saying that, "We will get Bennetta to bring her clothes."

Q. Okay. Do you --

A. And then, the next time that I came into the

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room - -

Q. She had more things.

A. Yes. Her bags were in the closet.

Q. Okay. So you don't know whether Lisa accompanied them to get her things or whether somebody just did that for her, or you kind of think that somebody did that for her?

A. That's been my understanding all along.

Q. Okay. How was Lisa's disposition when you took her to the - - to the cabana from Morton Plant?

A. She was -- she was quite calm. She was quiet. She was healthy.

Q. Okay. You're aware of the procedure that was being -- the word I'm looking for is -- going to be implemented was a - - was more of a watch or an isolation, and there was a no-talk situation going on. When were you told that that was going to be the way you were going to handle this, or were you ever told that?

A. It was just sort of indicated by Janet - -

Q. Janet or Janice?

A. No. Janet Herring.

Q. Janet Herring?

A. She was the one that said to go to that room, and then she came later to see if everything was all

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right. Dr. DeCuypere was with us for about twenty minutes or so. I still don't know why she was there, if they were personal friends or whatever But as we -- Janet came to the door, and she just, you know, sort of made a gesture to --

Q. You're familiar with that procedure, though -- being in the Church since 1968. It's an -- obviously --

A. Well, I've never been -- I've never been on a watch before.

Q. Okay.

A. So it was - - it was sort of an understanding that this was the general idea - -

Q. Okay.

A. -- is to -- not to --

Q. Was Lisa, at the time you took her to the cabana, still - - was she talking nonsensical or was she actually communicating with somewhat of a coherent line of thinking?

A. Right. She -- she seemed to be, at the beginning. And when Dr. DeCuypere was there, they were -- they had casual conversation. In fact, Dr. DeCuypere was speaking to her in rather light manner, as if she was trying to cheer her up a bit.

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Q. Mm-hmm.

A. Then she left. And the first thing I noticed that was a bit unusual was that Lisa sat on the foot of the bed, you know, and she put a finger -- I can't say exactly -- but in some manner like this, and stared at it for, you know, like several moments or longer. And I thought, "Hmm. Maybe this is why we're here."

Q. Right. Did she ever express to you, or anybody that you were with at that time, on that first day, that she didn't -- she wanted to go home or go see her mother or be anywhere other than --

A. No.

Q. -- where she was at the time?

A. No, not at that time. A day or -- it must have been -- yeah. A day or so later, she said something about meeting someone at the pool, but it wasn't a specific request or -- it was kind of babble, you know. And that she would meet so-and-so at the pool.

Q. Was she, in your presence, ever told why she was staying at the cabana, and what the purpose of her being there was?

A. No. I was more for the -- no, I didn't --

Q. Did she ever ask you why she was there or what

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the purpose of her being there was?

A. No. She - - at one time, she said, "Oh, I know where I am. I'm at the Ft. Harrison Hotel." She said, "This is an old wreck of a building." That's about all I remembered her saying.

Q. Can you describe the room that she was in? Was there one bed, two-bed, bathroom, window?

A. Yeah. Two beds and a bathroom, the big - - the plate glass window, closet. That's about it. An open closet in a hallway, which you pass through.

Q. Do you remember approximately what time it was that she got into that room?

A. Let's see. I worked this out -- we were going -- my son-in-law and I were going to go to a show when I was beeped, so that would have been around seven o'clock, I was beeped.

Q. In the evening?

A. Right.

Q. Okay.

A. Then at the hospital, probably thirty, - forty-five minutes, and then back. So it probably was in the vicinity of eight or eight-thirty.

Q. Okay. So you had not seen Janice Johnson at any time, during this initial twenty-four-hour period that we're talking about, with Lisa.

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A. No.

Q. How about Laura? Do you know who Laura is?

A. Yes, I know who she is.

Q. Mexican girl?

A. No. I didn't see her. During the first twenty-four hours?

Q. Yeah.

A. No.

Q. Did you meet with anybody, at this particular juncture in all of this, in reference to instructions on setting up this watch and how it was going to be rotated among the people that were going to participate?

A. Well, being there, I was waiting for someone to relieve me.

Q. So you had the very first watch?

A. Right.

Q. Who was with you?

A. Suzanna -- Suzanne Schnurrenburger. Suzanne Schnurrenburger.

Q. Okay. All right. Did you meet with anybody thereafter, that gave you directions or a shift or a schedule in which you were to follow?

A. It was kind of a -- the first day or two, it was kind of, like, whoever we could get. So it wasn't, like, laid out in a schedule or predicted at that time.

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. And Barbara Weinberg was the one who brought the next relief, and I'd leave with her when I would come back, so that was the only person I spoke to. But I -- that was the way it started off. And then we -- I don't know of any other specific arrangements being made.

Q. Did you ever meet with either Mr. Kellerhouse or Mr. Karduzinski or Albert Jalco or any of those people, in reference to what exactly your procedure was going to be that you followed here in this watch?

A. One time, with Mr. Karduzinski and his office.

Q. Okay. When was that?

A. That would have been -- it was a Saturday - - probably.

MR. POLLI: Do you have those calendars? SGT. ANDREWS: Oh, I have right here.

MR. POLLI: The blank ones? SGT. ANDREWS: Sure. That's November, and here's December.

MR. POLLI: Okay. And so we're talking about the 18th, and when she got there was here, on Saturday.THE WITNESS: Right. It was the day we went -- yeah. It was this, when I went with Dr. Houghton.

MR. POLLI: The 25th?

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THE WITNESS: Yeah. He and I went to Mr. Karduzinski's office.


Q. What day was that?

MR. POLLI: She thinks it was November the 25th, Saturday

A. Approximately.


Q. The 25th?

A. Mm-hrnm.

Q. So she'd already been there a week.

A. Right.

Q. What was the purpose of that meeting?

A. To double-check with him as to, you know, what he would recommend; if there was anything he could recommend to get her to sleep. She was having trouble sleeping, and we'd been trying everything up to that point.

Q. And what did he recommend?

A. He said to go ahead and give her some Aspirin and -- I couldn't remember at the time -- but some Benadryl, as well.

Q. Okay. And the dentist was with you also?

A. Right.

Q. Anybody else?

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A. No.

Q. That's the only time you ever met with Mr. Karduzinski?

A. Right.

Q. Did you brief him of Lisa's condition at that particular Juncture

A. It -- we mentioned it briefly, but he -- he was-- he was aware. He had the information on how she was doing. But we mentioned why we were there and, you know, the fact that she was having trouble sleeping.

Q. Okay. All right. After your first watch --

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. -- do you recall who relieved you? Did you have it all that night?

A. Yeah. I stayed -- no. I stayed until one o'clock in the morning.

Q. Okay.

A. And -- let's see. Barbara was there, and I think Suzanne stayed on as well.

Q. Okay.

A. And I went home and slept and came back at eight the next morning.

Q. All right. And how was Lisa doing then?

A. She was quite nervous, agitated. She would appear to be asleep but then jump up out of bed. And she

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was -- I think she did a dance. She was sort of going into these kind of exercise dance routines and then she'd turn around and hop back in bed.

Q. All right.

A. This type of thing. But physically, she was well. She was --

Q. Was she eating?

A. Not well. Perhaps bits. But that was my biggest concern, was to get her to eat and to sleep. She would -- I'll just give you one little example.

Q. Okay.

A. She would have a protein drink with a straw. She would draw the drink up into - - up the straw, just to her mouth, and then she would hold it and look at me. And then, I guess, when she thought I wasn't looking, she would let it down. But I knew she wasn't drinking. She wasn't swallowing.

Q. All right.

A. So it was like she was playing little games.

Q. Did that concern you a little bit?

A. Yeah, it did, because I wanted her to - - to take nourishment, you know, and I knew that she was playing a

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little game, because she had a twinkle in her eye, like, "Fooled you that time."

Q. After that -- that stage, did you have further -- further --

A. Watches?

Q. - - watches?

A. For a few more days. Then, as the - - my workload got heavier back at the office, and I was told that I wouldn't -- not in so many words, but I was - - asked, "Now, should I go next?" And they said, "No, that's fine. You don't need to go today." And I think probably because of my age, they definitely didn't give me any more night shifts. Then I didn't do any after the -- I think about the 22nd or 23rd. Can't remember exactly. But I was only there the first -- first part of the first week.

Q. During that period of time that you were involved in the watch, did you ever see Janice Johnson stop in?

A. I'm sorry? See her - -

Q. Janice ever stop in to see Lisa?

A. No. She was never - - never in the room at the same time as I was, no --

Q. Okay.

A. -- that I can recall.

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Q. How about any other doctors?

A. No.

Q. How about Dr. Houghton?

A. On the 25th, when he and I went to see Mr. Karduzinski -- he may have been there before, that. I'm not sure. I mean, you know, he could have visited her without me knowing, but I can't say that for sure.

Q. Was he involved in the care of her at all, that you -- I guess he was, to some extent.

A. Yeah. He wasn't on any watches, as far as I know, you know, like he spent hours there or anything.

Q. How would you describe Lisa's mood or physical being as the week progressed, that you were involved in this watch?

A. Mentally, she seemed to be getting worse. She was -- as I say, the first night, all she did was stare at her finger. And then she would be -- she would spend hours -- well, it seemed like hours. Perhaps it wasn't quite hours -- but long periods of time, doing various things with her fingers, you know, either sitting on the bed or lying on the bed. She would do these finger manipulations. I was trying to figure out what they meant or why she was doing that. And she - - she would - - as I say, she would hop into bed and hop out.

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She'd get up and go to the bathroom by herself without any problem. After the clothes arrived, she would change her. clothes frequently. When she would go to the bathroom, I would try to stay in a position where I could watch to see that she was okay, that she wouldn't hurt herself in there. She did, at one time, jump in the shower and turn it on, but only for a short time and she turned it off and came out.

Q. She ever indicate to you that she'd like to leave where she was -- leave the room where she was in?

A. No..The time that she talked about meeting somebody at the -- at the pool was about the only time that I can recall her saying anything.

Q. If you ever needed help, was there anybody that would give you help?

A. Oh, yes. The last -- the last day that I was there -- and -- well, I think probably two days, the last two days - - we were left with a radio telephone so that we could call Security or anything.

Q. Was there a gentleman posted outside the door at all for --

A. After about the second or third day, yes.

Q. And why was that?

A. I would imagine for the same reason; in case any

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help was needed.

Q. How would you describe that door? Was that a locked door or an unlocked door, hotel room door? How would you get in and out of that door?

A. Yeah. It was just a hotel door. It would lock when you closed it. You could open it from the iniside, but the outside - -

Q. Okay.

A. -- it was locked.

Q. Most of these watches involved two people rather than one, right?

A. That's true.

Q. Okay.

A. Mm-hmm. There was someone with me.

Q. Do you remember who was with you most of the time?

A. Most - - after Suzanne, there was Silvia DelaVega --

Q. Mm-hmm.

A. -- and then -- what's her name -- the chaplain, Valerie Demangie.

Q. Okay. Do you recall any incidents where either Lisa had to be restrained from hurting herself or had to be restrained from hurting other people?

A. The only -- the only time I saw anything of this

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kind was the day we went into -- Dr. Houghton and I went in. She was lying on the bed. And I had a fever meter, temperature strip, to take her temperature, and they had to hold her arms, because she would knock it off.

Q. A fever meter?

A. Yeah We didn't want to use a glass thermometer because she would hurt herself.. They have a little plastic strip that the heat goes a different color as the temperature goes up, and we thought that would be the safest way, you know, so she couldn't hurt herself.

Q. So who supervised that procedure? Was that Dr. Houghton?

A. He was with me at the time, but I took the temperature.

Q. Did she have a temperature?

A. It was slightly elevated. As I recall, it was around ninety-nine.

Q. Do you remember what day that was, approximately?

A. No. From what I can figure, that was the 25th.

Q. The 25th, maybe?

A. Mm-hmm. That was actually - -

Q. This is to help your memory -- I know it's been a long time. I'm not -- Is this your report here?

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I've got you possibly on the 29th --

A. Right...

MR. POLLI: We looked at that.

MR. McGARRY: Is that --

MR. POLLI: She wrote that at the MLO. It kind of sounds like that, the watch - - she was quite --

THE WITNESS: Yeah. I just --

MR. McGARRY: That's not --

MR. POLLI: We just went around and around on these dates, too, because I had that - -

MR. McGARRY: Well, feel free to jump in and clear me up on these.

MR. POLLI: I went down that same wrong path and spent -- figuring out --

A. Yeah. So the 25th was the last time I saw her. And then, from time to time, I would check with the people that were seeing her, to see how she was doing, sort of - -


Q. Well, that helps a lot.

A. Yeah.

Q. Now, did you - - do you recall writing any reports for any of your stays there, yourself? This isn't your report. Is this your report? This is what somebody told you.

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A. Right.

Q. So you wrote what - -

A. I wrote what was told me on that one.

Q. Okay.

A. No, I wrote -- on December the 5th, of course, we all wrote reports

Q. Mm-hmm.

A. But I'm sure I wrote -- or it seems -- and it would be logical, as well, but I would write -- I wrote one after her being in there, like after the - - probably after the second watch, is when I had time to do it, but - - and then some other - - you know, interim ones like this, from time to time.

MR. POLLI: We looked through that big stack. SGT. ANDREWS: Did you?

MR. POLLI: Yeah. The only one we found was that one.


Q. Okay. So let's not waste our time on. that. Who did you give those reports to? Not the December 5th one. I know that was probably given to Mark Quirino, right?

A. Right. Or someone that was there that evening. Some of them just -- like this one, for

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instance, wasn't so much of a rush, and that probably just went on our communication system., We have someone come around and pick up all the reports. However, the first one I wrote, I -- I'm sure I gave that to Security, as my, you know, memory serves me.

Q. And what was the substance of those reports? What did you put in those things?

A. Well, the first one would have -- I would have just put, like, the time, and what happened and, you know, slight - -

Q. Mm-hmm.

A. - - description of what we did. And I do these regularly with everybody I see.

Q. And do you have a problem, if we can get them from the Church, that we read those reports?

A. No, none whatsoever.

Q. You don't have an objection to that?

A. No, I don't, sir.

Q. So the 25th, to your best recollection, is the last contact you had with Lisa?

A. Mm-hmm. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you ever involved with any medicine - - other than what you've indicated is aspirin or maybe some Benadryl, was there any other medication that you saw that was being administered to Lisa during your particular

page 33


A. No. Vitamins, but no - -

Q. I'm talking about chloral hydrate, any kind of little pills. How about a shot, an injection of any kind?

A. No, I never saw --

Q. Were you aware of - -

A. I wasn't aware of it, no.

Q. --Any-- Okay. To the best of your recollection, who was in charge of this thing?

A. Sort of -- there's kind of two parts of it. There's the physical part and the spiritual part. And Alain Karduzinski was in charge of the spiritual part, but they overlapped a little bit, as well --

Q. Sure.

A. -- in that the -- in order to advance on the spiritual side of it, the body has to be in a good condition, as well.

Q. Mm-hmm.

A. So we cooperate on that. So it was between that, there was two.

Q. Was it regularly considered that she was experiencing what's called a Type 3 situation?

page 34

A. That's sort of a loose term that we use for someone that's, you know, having mental problems. ,

Q. Are you aware of any particular procedures that were prescribed by the Church for assisting somebody to come out of this Type 3 behavior?

A. I don't quite understand your question.

Q. Is there a -- is there a spiritual course that assists somebody from becoming - -

A. Well, there would - -

Q. -- better?

A. Most of the courses are adhered to that, yes. But if you mean like specifically - -

Q. Right.

A. - - there would be auditing. But a person has to be -- there's certain physical standards they have to have, for that to be successful. So I wasn't -- I wasn't aware -- or made aware of whether she had any of those or not. She might have had.

Q. You mentioned you wrote a report on December 5th. And I guess there was a little assembly there?

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. Who called you to that assembly?

A. I can't remember. Someone came to our apartment

page 35

and said that we were to come in for an urgent matter, and I drove in, in my car. I -- but I can't remember who came to the door. No, I can't remember exactly who it was.

Q. Did you go to this --

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And who was there?

A. The people that were on the watch; the - - Mr. Quirino, Janet Herring, the - - Arthur Baxter, Paul Kellerhouse - -

Q. And what was the purpose.of the meeting?

A. They told us that -- that it was urgent that we sit down and write a complete report of what - - everything that we could remember of what had happened with Lisa, from the time she came until that moment.

Q. Okay.

A. So we all wrote those reports.

Q. Did they inform you that she had expired?

A. No, they didn't, at that time. I found out that evening, but they didn't make a general announcement, if that's what you're asking.

Q. Was there any warnings given to anybody, that you can recall, that you may or may not have been exposed to an infectious disease or something that might have been contagious?

A. Yes. That was that same night, after we had

page 36

given reports. Then we were told to -- that we would be put in separate apartments - - in other words, isolated for the time being -- until further notice.

Q. And what was it you were told that might be the - - might be the affliction that might be contagious?

A. As I recall, it was something to the effect that -- I mean, it was -- we knew it was about Lisa, because we'd written a report on her, so we were told that she may have had something that was contagious, and that, as a precaution, we would be isolated until it was determined what had happened. Q Who told you that?

A. I believe Janet Herring.

Q. Okay. Is there anything else you did in reference to this case, you can recall, after that?

A. Oh, after that? Well, we were -- the next day, about -- oh, the next evening, actually, they came to the apartment where I was with -- cause I was there with some other people on the watch, and said I could be released and go back on post, because I had only been there at the beginning of the watch, and what they suspected would have happened near the end, and so that I wouldn't have been involved. I wasn't near her, so I wouldn't be contaminated, so I could go.

page 37

Q. Anything else that you did?

A. Not other than the - - you know, the usual, taking care of her, while t was on the watch, no.

Q. Okay. If you'd like a break, we can certainly take one. There's a couple questions I'm sure the detectives would like to ask you. If you'd like to plunge ahead, I'm sure we can finish up shortly.

A. I'm fine.

Q. Okay. I don't know if you've met these guys --


Q. I'm Wayne Andrews, with Clearwater Police Department. Nice to meet you today.

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Let me ask you - - I understand - - or I've done quite a bit of research on the public versus the staff, and MLO's and everything. One of the things I'm confused about is, Lisa was a public person - -

A. Right.

Q. -- and ended up at the cabanas, coming back to the cabanas at the hotel, and ended up in this isolation watch, I assume, probably, get her body and her mind, probably, back in order, so that the spiritual auditing or

page 38

the special. rundown stuff could be started, maybe by Alain Karduzinski, to get her back into, maybe, the normal mode that she worked all the time. But she ends up back there, as a public person, and then she ends up having the staff MLO, which is Janice Johnson, okay --

A. Oh yes

Q. -- Janice Johnson or Colesberry Webber -- the staff MLO taking care of her, where your responsibility kind of just got kind of pushed aside, and I was curious about how Janice Johnson ended up taking charge of this thing and working on it.

A. I really don't know the answer to that, why she was. I was more or less phased out because, I think, at this point, she was becoming a bit more violent. I think they felt that, because of my age, I probably couldn't --

Q. Okay. Did you see any of that violent behavior?

A. I saw one incident that was a bit - - was violent.

Q. Could you explain that?

A. Yes. -

Q. Yeah.

A. It was the last day I was there. And there's -- I mentioned the radio telephone that was given us. It was on a -- the dresser. And everything seemed to be fine. She was --

page 39

she'd been in bed. I think she'd been sleeping. It was morning, and I brought her breakfast in. And she - - she just very suddenly jumped up off the bed, went over to the dresser and just, "whoosh," knocked this thing flying across the room, for no apparent reason, or - - And that was - - that was the first sign of violence, up until that point while I was with her. She did strange things, but not violent things. That was rather sudden and violent, and a bit frightening.

Q. Okay. You said there were two people responsible. You said Alain Karduzinski --

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. Who was the other person responsible?

A. Well, technically, as far as the physical side of it goes, normally, the public MLO is.

Q. That would be you.

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay.

A. But as I say, as I was phased out a bit near the end, because - - for whatever reason, they felt that I wasn't actually -- you know, I think it was more or less for my own protection, as well.

Q. Okay. So do you know who your replacement would have been, who would have been - - since you would have been responsible for her medical care --

page 40

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. - - and Alain responsible for her psychological care and making the decisions, do you know who replaced you as - - who was responsible for the medical care?

A. I don't -- It wasn't one particular person, from what I can - - it was -- the ones -- who was working with her on the watch --

Q. Okay.

A. - - and they were working with Alain.

Q. We have some reports here from the very beginning days, like the 18th, 19th and 20th, and they're signed by Sussane Reich. Now, is Sussane Reich - -

A. Oh, I forgot about Sussane Reich.

Q. Okay. What I was trying to get at, is Sussane Reich is different than Suzanne Schnurrenburger?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Different people?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Good.

A. Yes. She did replace me on one of the first watches, that's right.

Q. Okay. Janet Herring.

A. Mm-hmm.

page 41

Q. What's her position, or what was her position at the Church?

A. I can't recall what she was then. She is now the Chief Officer for the organization - - yeah. The Chief Officer -- but I don't think she was, at that time. And I can't remember what she was.

Q. Now, by saying "Chief Officer," now --

A. I think she was just - - she may have been just -- no, I don't think so. It was later. It's quite recently that she's been made the Chief Officer.

Q. Now, "Chief Officer," my understanding -- and some of the other people I talked to -- we had Debbie Cook as the Captain - -

A. Right.

Q. -- and Jason --

A. There's three divisions under her --

Q. Okay.

A. -- each having three divisions under them.

Q. Okay. And where's Herring fit into the picture now? Does she answer to Debbie Cook?

A. Yes.

Q. She answers to Debbie Cook, and she has her own division?

A. No. She doesn't have her -- she's over three divisions.

page 42

Q. So she's above Marcus Quirino or is she --

A. Yes, at this point, she is.

Q. Okay. Do you remember, on that report that you wrote, who told you that she was weak? I remember reading in the report - -

A. Mm-hmm. I think it was Valerie -- Valerie Demangie.

Q. Okay. At Morton Plant --

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. - - you never got to talk to Lisa directly, back and forth.

A. No, no. She was always with other people.

Q. Okay. I noticed -- something that I wanted to explore a little bit with you, was - -

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. - - it seemed that everything was in a holding pattern at Morton Plant, as far as Lisa's care, because she was talking to a psychiatrist nurse, which was --

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. -- A male? Was that a male?

A. Yes.

Q. Yes. Everything was in kind of on hold until Judy Colesberry Webber showed up. And it seemed, in your explanation, that Judy Colesberry Webber showed up, you guys were in the hail, she goes inside because she knows

page 43

the doctor, and the next thing you know, Lisa's leaving, is that correct?

A. Well, that's a bit brief.

Q. Okay.

A. You know, there may have been -- I can't recall -- I think she came out once and spoke to us as a group, Judy did.

Q. Okay.

A. It wasn't quite -- you know, that's a bit simplified, but that's the general idea.

Q. All right. I was just getting the impression, from the way you talked, that maybe Judy Colesberry Webber was a deciding factor on Lisa leaving. All of the sudden, we're in a holding pattern. The psych nurse and the Doctor are deciding what to do with her, and Judy Colesberry Webber comes in, and, "bang," we're moving on, and Lisa's leaving. And that's the impression I got, from your explanation.

A. Right. No, I didn't quite mean it that -- I don't think that was quite the situation.

Q. Okay. Did Lisa ever say anything in the ride back with -- in the car with you and Alain?

A. It was -- it was very -- Let's see. I'm trying to think who said this. It was either Alain or - - oh, yeah. She did. She said --

page 44

she said to Alain - - See, I was in the back seat - -

Q. Okay.

A. -- she said to him, "I'm so glad you came." And he -- and he said, "Well, I'm glad, as well, that we came " Just, you know, a few little remarks I got, from what I could hear, in the back.

Q. You've been around the Church a long time.

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. One of my things, during my investigation, I uncovered, it seemed very unusual that so many high-profile people -- and I mean -- I don't mean to sound snooty about that - -

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. - - but so many high-profile people in the Church went to Morton Plant for Lisa McPherson. And I mean by the fact that Alain Karduzinski, the senior case supervisor; Dr. Jenny DeCuypere, a chiropractor; I think her boss's husband was there, David Slaughter; you were there; Humberto Fontana; his wife; Ms. Mora, which is the wife of Sergio Mora, if I'm not mistaken --

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. You are -- you people that showed up at the hospital weren't your normal, run-of-the-mill staff that

page 45

would respond to a emergency like that, is that correct?

A. No, that's not wholly correct. This happens. quite frequently, with - -

Q. With people --

A. Yes. I've been down there several times with other staff who come if they're concerned, if they think there's help needed.

Q. Okay. So see, now, in my investigation, I found that to be correct, most of the time, when there was --

A. Most of the time.

Q. -- when it was staff member -- when you have a staff member down there, like yourself. If you were to end up at Morton Plant, I could understand that, being the public MLO.

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. Lisa's just a parishioner. You know, simply a parishioner, not a staff member. And all of these people ended up there. Was there anything ever' said, why they all had gone there?

A. Nothing was ever -- nothing was actually said, no. But it wasn't unusual. I mean --

Q. Okay.

A. -- we've had this happen before-

page 46

Q. All right. Have you gone to Morton Plant before, or to any hospital before, in a similar situation like this, and brought the person back to the Ft. Harrison Hotel and given them a room there?

A. No,.I haven't, myself, personally. Q Do you know of instances of that occurring

A. Not personally, but I do know that it's possible that it could have happened.

Q. Okay.

A. I don't know, personally.

Q. Now, you said that Dr. DeCuypere was at the room for about ten minutes. Are you sure you're real clear on that, or could it have been somebody else? Was it Dr. DeCuypere that was back at the cabanas?

A. Oh, it was definitely Dr. DeCuypere at the cabanas. The part that might be a little foggy would be in the actual hospital room, when I went in --

Q. Okay.

A. -- when the psychiatric nurse was there. I know Alain Karduzinski was there, and there was another person who I think was Dr. DeCuypere. But at the motel, she definitely was there.

Q. All right. In the beginning of the watch, you were basically in charge of her medical care, as the MLO,

page 47

public MLO.

A. Mm-hmm..

Q. If Lisa wanted to leave that room, whose permission would you need to get in order to release this watch?

A. The Senior CS.

Q. Senior Case Supervisor, which is Alain Karduzinski?

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. You would have to get his supervision (sic) because he's basically the one in charge?

A. Right. SGT. ANDREWS: I don't have anything further.


Q. I've just got a couple of questions.

A. Okay.

Q. Do you, yourself, have any medical training?

A. No.

Q. Are you aware that, after this incident, or since this incident, Mr. Karduzinski and Dr. Johnson have been, in essence, demoted?

A. We change staff an awful lot. We change positions a lot.

page 48

Q. So--

A. They have - - I guess, now that you mention it, they have been, but a lot - -

Q. They have been?

A. So have a lot of people.

Q. Janice Johnson was a Medical Liaison Officer and now she's a Word Clearer at the staff college?

A. Yeah.

Q. Would you consider that a demotion?

A. Not necessary, because she -- she's always had the ambition to become an auditor, and this is the first step of an auditor, is to become a Word Clearer, so you get familiar with the use of the words, et cetera.

Q. But regardless, those changes in post or in hat have happened since this.

A. Yes, it did happen since this, mm-hmm.

Q. When you transported Lisa from Morton Plant to the cabanas, did she have any injuries from the accident, physical injuries?

A. No. I never -- I knew -- what was told to me was that she came upon an accident. I didn't realize that she had an accident.

Q. But you didn't see any injuries or --

A. No.

Q. -- she didn't complain of any injuries?

page 49

A. No.

Q. Was there a reason that these people took her to the cabanas and not to her home or her apartment? Did she ever voice that she wanted to go home?

A. As I say, the only time was when she mentioned meeting somebody at the pool.

Q. Mm-hmm.

A. The night that I brought her, she was - - she was very pleasant and compatible. And as I say, she did mention to Dr. -- or rather to Alain Karduzinski, in the car, that she was glad they came.

Q. That -- what?

A. That she was glad he came to the hospital.

Q. Okay. Did she mention she'd rather go home than to the cabanas?

A. No. She never -- she never questioned or resisted or anything.

Q. When you were at the -- at Morton Plant, did you - - we had information that Mr. Fontana was handing out pamphlets that were ariti-psychiatry pamphlets. Were you aware of that?.

A. Yes. He had a booklet, I think.

Q. Is that standard to procedure to do when somebody's at the hospital?

page 50

A. I don't -- I -- not that I know of.

Q. Well --

A. I mean, that's -- that's not part of his job. I don't know.

Q. Could you describe Lisa's medical condition the last time you saw her?

A. That would have been the day that I took her temperature. It was slightly elevated. She was certainly strong - -

Q. Mm-hmm.

A. -- she was - - she may have appeared to be weak, but she was strong, because it took some effort to keep her arms from knocking this little strip of plastic off her forehead..

Q. Were you (sic) aware that she (sic) was trying to take her temperature?

A. I told her that. It was -- but when I came in, she said, "Oh, Emma." And I was a bit surprised that she remembered me, because there was a lot of people that had seen her, and I hadn't been there for a few days.

Q. Mm-hmm.

A. And I explained that we were, you know, just going to take her temperature.

Q. And she got violent?

A. Very -- not to the point of, like, hurting

page 51

anybody, but she wouldn't sit still.

Q. She had to be held down?

A. Correct.

Q. Who held her down?

A. Let's see. There was Heather -- what's Heather's last name?

Q. Heather Petzold?

A. Yes. And -- Don't get old, because your memory goes.

Q. I'm already there. SGT. ANDREWS: We're there.

A. There was Heather, and I think another young girl that was fairly new, Lacey. I remember being a bit surprised to see these girls there - -


Q. Lacey Spencer?

A. Yeah. I'm not totally sure, but I think.

Q. So the three of you held her down?

A. Well, Dr. Houghton was there as well.

Q. So four of you held her down?

A. (Nods head).

Q. Just to take her temperature?

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. What was she saying? "Let me up"? "Get me out

page 52

of here"? "Don't do this"?

A. I can't recall her actually saying -- saying anything.

Q. She obviously didn't want her temperature taken.

A. She was not cooperative.

Q. But you don't remember what she was saying?

A. I can't recall. I remember her saying "hello" to me when I came in. You know, she says, "Oh" -- sort of surprised - - "Oh, Emma," you know.

Q. Did you ever remember her saying, "I'm getting out of here. I'm going home. I'm out of here. Bye. See you"?

A. No.

Q. Never? She never expressed a desire to leave?

A. There was one time when we were -- someone was going out, and she walked over to the door. The door was open a crack. She -- she looked out. You know, she was kind of curious of what was going on outside, but she didn't --

Q. Was there a guard outside the door?

A. Probably.

Q. There was?

A. Yeah. But she didn't -- she didn't struggle or anything. You know, she didn't try to -- she didn't make

page 53

an effort, physical effort to go out.

Q. Of course, she couldn't leave without Alain Karduzinski's permission anyway, correct?

A. Right.

Q. You said that, on the night of the 25th, someone came to your apartment, and then you -- who were --

A. No, that was the night of the 5th.

Q. I'm sorry. The night of the 5th, someone came to your apartment and wanted you to go to a meeting. You said, "told us" and "we," that "we were" -- Who were you with in your apartment?

A. My other regular roommates.

Q. Who was that?

A. My -- Daphne Farrell is -- I share a room with Daphne Farrell.

Q. But Daphne had nothing to do with the watch?

A. No.

Q. Just because she had contact with you, she was - -

A. Right.

Q. That was -- Okay. During -- you were there for the first. week of the watch, give or take - -

A. Yeah.

Q. And at that time, you consider Lisa's problems

Page 54 is missing.

page 55

Q. When you talked to Alain Karduzinski on the 25th with Dr. Houghton, did he mention either Janice Johnson or Dr. Minkoff?

A. No.

Q. Does Alain Karduzinski -- does he have some kind of medical training, do you know?

A. Not to my knowledge. May have, but I'm not aware of it.

Q. Okay. It was his idea to give aspirin and Benadryl to - -

A. Not necessary his idea. He was -- he gave the permission.

Q. So am I to understand correctly that it was Dr. Houghton's idea or your idea?

A. I really don't know. Dr. Houghton said that he was going up to Alain's office to check with him, and would I come with him, because I would go and pick it up at the drugstore. I had the car.

Q. So if Dr. Houghton was to want to give Benadryl to Lisa, he would have to get Alain Karduzinski's permission?

A. Right. And he -- and he would - - he bases it on the works of L. Ron Hubbard, that we live by and follow.

MR. POLLI: Say that again?

page 56


Q. I don't understand that.

A. Well, he would -- it's not -- like he bases that decision on the methods that L. Ron Hubbard says, you know, how we handle people.

Q. You mean there are steps that were put forth by L. Ron Hubbard concerning medical care?

A. No, no. It's this -- no. The situation -- it would be on how to handle a body to get it well enough to have auditing.

Q. Well, I don't understand, but I don't think we'll go there.

A. Okay.

MR. POLLI: Thank you.


Q. We'll leave that alone.

A. Yeah. It's a -- it's a fine line there.

Q. On the meeting of the -- the meeting that you had December 5th, was Dr. Johnson there, Janice Johnson?

A. Yes.

Q. And everybody there had to write reports?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember who your report was addressed to?

A. No. I didn't actually address it. I just had

page 57

it as information on - -

Q. And you gave it to -- who did you give it to?

A. I can't remember the specific person. There was somebody gathering them up, you know, as we finished. We didn't all finish at the same time. Some took longer. can't remember. It was one of those people that I mentioned that I saw there, you know. I don't remember for sure which one took up the pieces of paper.

Q. Have you -- have you discussed your testimony here today with anybody before coming, other than your attorney?

A. The,-- himself and another -- another attorney at the Church.

Q. Okay.

MR. POLLI: Sandy.


Q. And when was that?

A. About a week ago.

Q. Did you discuss what you were going to talk about here today?

A. Briefly, you know.

Q. Did you get a chance to go over your reports that you wrote?

A. No. I didn't.

Q. You haven't seen your reports since you wrote

page 58


A. No, no. With the exception of this short one here, I saw yesterday - - day before yesterday.

Q. Okay.

A. I didn't see the others.

Q. How do you spell Janet Herring's name?


AGENT STROPE: I don't have anything else. Thank you.


Q. I just had a quick one. The night that you were called from your apartment --

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. - - did you go someplace? Do you remember what building you went to, to report for the meeting?

A. Yes. It was on the fifth floor of the Coachman.

Q. Okay. Now, when you went in to write this report --

A. Mm-hmm.

Q. - - did they tell you why you needed to write the report? I mean, did they --

A. No. They just said, "Just sit down and write everything that you know about Lisa McPherson, from the

page 59

time you started helping her until the end."

Q. Okay. From sitting back and listening to your explanations of it, it seemed to me that church officials were worried about some type of a bacteria or an infection or something, of all the caretakers, and that they were asking everyone there for quarantine. Were you ever quarantined?

A. Yes, I was, for -- let's see -- approximately twenty-four hours, maybe.

Q. Okay. So your understanding of writing the report about Lisa was because of this concern of the people who took care of her for the quarantine; Is that your understanding?

A. Partially. And I suspected that something - - something - - 0. Else was up?

A. - - something was seriously wrong. They said it was an urgent matter. But - - so that would have been part of the reason.

Q. Okay.

A. Although -- wait, now. Just a minute. That couldn't be right, because they didn't mention the quarantine until after we'd written the report.

Q. Okay.

A. So I mean, that wasn't -- that couldn't have

page 60

been a reason for writing it, because it wasn't mentioned until afterwards.

Q. The reason I ask that, in listening, was that; apparently, someone must have gone through the reports, because you said, later on, they came to you and said, "Oh, by the way, you wrote this report, you were only there in the beginning, okay, so therefore, you weren't exposed to that bug, because it only happened at the end, and you can go back to normal living." See why I was getting the idea that the reports were written for whoever was doing this investigation to figure out who was exposed and who was not exposed? And I got that from you.

A. That may possibly have been one of the reasons, sure. SGT. ANDREWS: I have no further questions.


Q. Just one quick question: Do you know a lady named Margaret Marafino?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know her?

A. Yes.

Q. What is her job there?

A. She's a -- I believe she's the cook in charge of

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desserts at the - -

Q. In charge of what?

A. The desserts. The yummies. The goodies.

Q. That was her job, then?

A. It may not have been specifically desserts, but she works in the dining area

Q. What was her job back then, do you know?

A. I believe she was still in the dining area, as the cook.

Q. She had nothing to do with the cabanas?

A. Did you say Margaret Marafino - -

Q. Mm-hmm.

A. That's the daughter.

Q. I believe she's --

A. I don't think so.

Q. I believe she's an elderly lady.

A. No. Then the elderly lady -- there's a mother and daughter. Margaret is the daughter.

Q. What about --

A. The mother is - -

Q. Is she in Housekeeping?

A. She might have been at that time. She's been back and forth quite a lot. I couldn't say, definitely, if she was, at that time, or not.

Q. Okay.

page 62

A. But her name wasn't -- Margaret is the daughter.

Q. So it's a mother-daughter --

A. It's something like Tina or something like that.

Q. The mother is --

A. The mother is Tina No - -

Q. And she -- Margaret, the daughter, is the one that works in Pastries?

A. Right.

Q. And Tina is possibly Housekeeping?

A. She could possibly have been, at that time.

Q. Could she have been the housekeeper at the cabanas at that time?

A. Possibly. Although she -- just recently, she's had a much different post. But as I say, you see, the people that run the buildings and the cooking and stuff, they're different -- a different organization, and I don't follow their moves too much.

AGENT STROPE: Okay. Thank you very much.

MR. McGARRY: All right. That'll do it.

THE WITNESS: It's something like "Tina," but -- the name is something like "Tina," the first name. I'm not sure.

(Whereupon the statement was concluded at 10:35 a.m.)

Page 63 is missing, or else page 64 is misnumbered.

page 64




          I, the undersigned authority, certify that EMMA
LOUISE SCHAMEHORN personally appeared before me and was
duly sworn.

          WITNESS my hand and officia1 seal this 29th day 
of April, 1997.

                        [notary seal]

                      DONNA M. KANABAY, RPR, RMR
                      Notary Public - State of Florida

page 65




          I, DONNA M. KANABAY, Registered Professional
Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did
stenographically report the deposition of EMMA
LOUISE SCHAMEHORN, and that the transcript is a true and complete
record of my stenographic notes.

          I further certify that I am not a relative,
employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor 
am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 
attorney or counsel connected-with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action. 

          DATED this 29th day of April, 1997.

                      DONNA M. KANABAY
                      RPR, RMR