Sworn Statement of Leslie J Woodcraft

Date:May 20, 1997







TAKEN BY:                  MARK MCGARRY. 

DATE:                      May 20, 1997. 

BEFORE:                    Kristine N. Blake, RMR, 
                           Notary Public, 
                           State of Florida at large. 

PLACE:                     Criminal Justice Center,
                           Clearwater, Florida. 

      TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
   ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320

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                  Assistant State Attorney,
                  Attorney for State of Florida.

                  ROBERT P. POLLI, ESQUIRE,
                  Barnett Bank Plaza,
                  101 East Kennedy Boulevard,
                  Suite 3130,
                  Tampa, FL 33602.
                  Attorney for Leslie J. Woodcraft. 


                  SPECIAL AGENT LEE STROPE.

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LESLIE J. WOODCRAFT, the witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. MCGARRY: Okay. Before we begin, would you like to put your piece on the record?

MR. POLLI: Yes. Thank you. My name is Bob Polli, and I represent the legal interest of Leslie Woodcraft.

Leslie received a subpoena pursuant to Florida Statute 914.04. We have reviewed the protections inherent in that statute, and she understands what those protections are, and she also understands what her obligations are under that statute. And based on all that, we're ready to proceed accordingly. Thank you.



Q. Okay. Please state your name for the record.

A. My name's Leslie Jane Woodcraft.

Q. Okay. Where are you currently living, Leslie?

A. I'm living in the Church of Scientology birthing [sic; should be "berthing"] housing in the Hacienda in Clearwater.

Q. Okay. How long have you been a member of the church?

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A. Since -- I mean, I first became interested and took services in Scientology in about 1966 in England.

Q. Uh-huh. And did you join the church in England?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Are you currently a U.S. citizen? Are you still English?

A. I have a green card for the U.S.

Q. Okay. When did you come to the U.S.?

A. In 1986.

Q. 86?

A. Yes.

Q. 86?

A. 86, yes.

Q. And why did you come to the U.S.?

A. Well, I originally came to take services at the Church of Scientology in Clearwater, and then I had worked in the ch of Scientology in one of the churches in England, and I decided I wanted to stay and work in the church here.

Q. Did they ask you to come to Clearwater, or is that something you requested to do?

A. No, I actually came for -- for services.

Q. Okay. And when did you become a member of

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the staff, or are you a member of the staff?

A. I am a member of the staff. I

Q. And when was that?

A. In 1986, about -- a few weeks after I first came

Q. And what duties or what post did you take on in 1986?

A. My post was what's called an organizing officer, and it's basically a sort of executive post to do with, you know, management, administration, basically.

Q. Okay. What's your birth date?

A. X 1948.

Q. All right. Who is your immediate supervisor?

A. My senior in my job?.

Q. Uh-huh.

A. His name is Frank Ferreti (phonetic.)

Q. Has he been your senior for a long time?

A. He's been my senior since 1993.

Q. Okay. Who was it before that?

A. Before that I was actually working in L.A., in the church in L.A. I said I came here in 86, was here in Clearwater until 88. Then I went to Los Angeles, and I was working in the church there in Los Angeles. Then I came back here in 93, and he and I

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came together from Los Angeles in 1993.

Q. All right. What position did you have with the church in November of 1995, if you recall?

A. The same one that I have now.

Q. Okay. And that is an organizing officer?

A. No, not -- sorry. I thought when you asked me that question, what was my job when I first came.

Q. Okay. Well, that's fair. What --

A. My job now is called -- I'm over like personnel and communications and that sort of area. It's called an HCO area secretary. It stands for Hubbard Communications Office area secretary.

Q. All right. Did you ever know Lisa Mcpherson?

A. Not until the night that I actually happened to look after her for a couple of hours. I didn't know her before that.

Q. Okay. Who asked you to look after her?

A. The -- the security person called Arthur.

Q. Okay.

A. He-

Q. Arthur Baxter?

A. Yes.

Q. And what -- when did he ask you, and what did he ask you?

A. Well, he basically told me that -- I mean, it

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was sort of late in the evening. He told me that one of the girls that was looking after her was getting very tired and could I take over for a little while, and I said I'd take over right away and got one of my juniors to find someone who would be able to take over after that.

Q. Did you know what he was talking about when he said he wanted you to look after Lisa McPherson?

A. I knew about the cycle, because one of my juniors had been asked from personnel, you know, who could help look after her, and he, you know, let me know about the cycle.

Q. So had you heard about how she -- how she was behaving and such?

A. Yes.

Q. So you knew what to expect to some degree?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. What had you heard about her behavior?

A. That -- that she was what we call over restimulated, like a little crazy.

Q. Would that be a type three personality?

A. Yes, yes. I didn't know if you knew those terms.

Q. Okay. And you think the night that you spent some time watching Lisa McPherson was the night of the

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A. Yes, sir.

Q. That would have been Thanksgiving?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Approximately what time did you have your shift start that night?

A. I actually don't know exactly. I know it was sort of late at night. It was probably -- I know it was past eleven.

Q. And do you recall who it was that you relieved?

A. Sorry, sir?

Q. Do you recall who it was that you relieved from their post?

A. I think it was Sylvia Dela -- I think it was Sylvia.

Q. Delavaga?

A. Delavaga, yes.

Q. All right. Was there a guard at the door when you took over your shift?

A. There was a guard sort of -- there was a little bench outside. He was at the bench there when I arrived.

Q. Do you remember who that was?.

A. I don't, actually. No, I don't -- I don't KANABAY COURT REPORTERS. 8 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT

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remember which -- there were a number of security guards. I don't remember which one that was.

Q. Okay. Do you recall how you gained entry into the room?

A. I think he just knocked on the door, and Janice came to the door.

Q. Okay. Janice was in the room when you entered?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there anybody else in the room with Janice besides Lisa McPherson?

A. No.

Q. Janice was the only one?

A. Yes. Well, Syl -- sorry. Sylvia came out.

Q. Okay.

A. As he knocked on the door, she came out of the room and I went into the room.

Q. All right. Where was Lisa when you went into the room?

A. I think she was standing over to the right-hand side of the room. Yes, to the right-hand side of the room.

Q. Okay.

A. She wasn't sitting down or anything. She was sort of pacing around.

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Q. Can you describe the time that this was, I mean, in -- in general terms? Was it after midnight or before midnight, or do you --

A. I would think it was just -- it was after midnight, but not long after midnight

Q. Okay.

A. Around that time.

Q. All right. Were you following the generally recognized procedure in not having a conversation with Lisa?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have a conversation with Janice at that time?

A. No. I mean, I walked in. She sort of nodded that I was there, acknowledged that I was there, and then, you know, we just sort of stood there.

Q. Okay. Did you have a conversation with Sylvia at that time, or the same thing?

A. When she came out of. the door? Yes, I think I said something to the effect, "I've come to take over for you. You can go and get some sleep now."

Q. Did you get a report of the status of Lisa at that time to see how she was doing?

A. I -- I think I may have said to Sylvia -- I don't remember exactly, but I think I said, "How's it

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going?" And she just sort of said, "Okay," but looked sort of tired and --

Q. Okay. Were you given any instructions by the security guard, Arthur Baxter, in reference to how you were to handle Lisa in the event that she had a physical episode with you?

A. Yes. He went over with me that "You stay very calm the whole time. If she tries to like raise her arm and hit you or anything, you just very gently put her arm and push it back down and then she tends to calm down completely" is what he told me, and just stay very quiet.

Q. Okay. How about any instructions as -- as to if or when she tried to leave the room? Were you given any instructions as to how you were to handle that potential situation?

A. Not that I remember, no. No.

Q. Okay. Did Lisa ever try to leave the room while you were watching her?

A. No.

Q. How long was your watch?

A. I think I was in there about two -- two to three hours. There was a period where I left the room, so I would think overall it was about that..

Q. And who was in the room besides Lisa and you?

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A. Janice Johnson.

Q. Okay. Were you able to observe -- what was Lisa doing during this two- or three-hour period?

A. Well, to start with, when I first went in, she was tending to pace up and down the room, you know, in a rather sort of frantic way, and she was talking, I mean, pretty sort of -- pretty -- sort of like crazy talk, and then she would go up to Janice, like go right up to her, and it was like she thought Janice was her mother, you know. She was like talking, "Mommy," and, you know, rambling on at her. And then she -- it was sort of like she would suddenly switch off that and walk away and start talking to herself, walking backwards -- sort of pacing backwards and forwards, and then she might come back up to Janice again and talk to her as though she was somebody else. I mean, it was very weird. At one -- one point during the whole time she did lie -- there was a bed there. She did lie down on the bed, but it only lasted for about two minutes. And she thought we were like gonna have a win at having her rest --

Q. Right.

A. -- but then, like moments later, she was up again and sort of pacing around the room, and then -- do you want me to just continue on with the whole KANABAY COURT REPORTERS. 12 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT

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Q. Sure. You might as well. You're giving me what I'm asking. That's fine.

A. Okay. And then at one point she went into the back of the room where there's the bathroom, and she started turning the bath taps on and spray and spraying everything with water.

Q. Okay. Did -- how did you react to that?

A. Well, Janice went ahead of me and just gently turned the tap off, took the sprayer, put it back, guided her back into the room and -- but she kept going back and doing that towards the end.

Q. Okay. Were you present -- okay. Were you present for any food service or medical services that were attempted?

A. I think Janice gave her some -- I don't know if it was a vitamin or -- I know she whispered to me, "I'm going to give her this to calm her down."

Q. And what was that?

A. To be honest, I actually don't know what it was.

Q. Can you describe what it looked like?

A. I think it was like a small tablet. Like we had the room fairly like -- not bright lights on, just very soft lights, and so I couldn't see it exactly, and

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she had it, and she picked it up and she put it in Lisa's mouth. And I wasn't sure whether Lisa. swallowed it or spat it out. It was like hard to tell. She sort of like -- looked like she was going to swallow it, and then she went (indicating,) and I couldn't see whether it --

Q. Okay. But Johnson described the pill as being something that would calm her down?

A. Yeah, or words to that effect. I don't remember her exact words, but I got the idea it was something to calm -- calm her.

Q. Okay. Did it calm her down?

A. Not really, to my observation. I mean, she was -- she was pretty crazy.

Q. Okay. Anything else that you can remember she did while you were on that post?

A. Right towards the end of when I was there, she -- well, earlier on, at one point she did come up and slap Janice across the face. Janice was amazingly calm. She just like took her arm, pushed it back down again, and then Lisa just sort of paced backwards and forwards. And then, towards the end, she kept going back to the bathroom and turning all these taps on and getting in the bath, and she got herself all wet and started flooding the bath with -- the floor outside the

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bathroom, and it sort of like started to come along the floor, so I said to Janice, "I'm going to go and get her some dry clothes and some stuff to mop the floor," because it was getting slippery and dangerous, so I went off and I went back to security, said -- told them what was happening and said I was going to get some dry clothes for her. And I went up to the laundry, the laundry area upstairs, and found some sort of loose clothes that would be easy to get on her. And then as I came back down with those clothes, the person who was going to replace me arrived.

Q. And who was that?

A. That was Joan Stevens.

Q. Okay. And do you recall about what time that was?

A. My guess is it was around two or three in the morning. I'm not absolutely sure.

Q. Okay. Did Janice Johnson leave with you?

A. No. Janice stayed there.

Q. Okay. What was Lisa doing when you left?

A. When I went out of the room to get the clothes, she was still back in the bathroom area, and her clothes were like wet.

Q. Okay. Is that your only contact with Lisa

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McPherson is that three-hour period or two- to three-hour period?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Okay. Did you write a record of what you observed during that period?

A. I don't think I did. I think I went back to security and sort of debriefed, because it was a bit of -- like a temporary holding.

Q. Do you remember who that security officer might have been?

A. I think it was Arthur.

Q. Okay.

A. I'm pretty sure it was Arthur when I went in. I can't remember absolutely if it was Arthur when I came out, but I think so.

Q. Did you ever go to a meeting that was called by Marcus Quirino after Lisa had died?

A. Yes. I went to -- he called us up to the fifth floor, and me and Joan and some other people -- it wasn't -- it wasn't quite a meeting. He sort of interviewed us.

Q. Okay. Did you write a report at that time?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Okay. Did you indicate verbally to him what your experiences were with Lisa?

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A. I think more he wanted to know when -- you know, he asked me -- I think he already knew that I had been there. This is why he called me up. And he wanted to know when I had been with her, like which day and soon.

Q. Okay. Between November 23rd and December 5th of 1995, did you have any additional contact with Lisa McPherson?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Did you have any other part or role in the organization of the watch and/or do anything that was helpful towards the accomplishment of that watch?

A. My junior was the main -- my -- I have an immediate junior -- was the main person who was working on helping making sure there were enough personnel to help look after her.

Q. And who was that?

A. That's Olivia Jaillot.

Q. Olivia?

A. I think it may be written down as Olivia, but he's actually from Switzerland.

Q. Oh, it's a -- it's a guy, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And his last name is spelled J-a-c-c-o-t?

A. No, J-a-i-l-l-o-t.

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Q. J-a-i-l-l-o-t. Okay. And he's your junior. Now, what exactly -- did you give him instructions or was he getting those instructions from somebody else? A He was in comm -- in cpnmunication with Alain Kartuzinski and security.

Q. All right. So would you describe his task as being involved in organizing when and where all of these girls -- women were to be at the watch and what time they were to get there, something to do with that?

A. Not necessarily all the details of the time, but basically to coordinate with like their seniors that they would be doing -- you know, would be on the watch.. He would be like the person who would help coordinate to get people, and then they would go over to Alain or security or whatever and it would be worked out.

Q. All right. So he would report to you, and he would also report to Mr. Kartuzinski?

A. Yes. He would be in communication with him, yes.

Q. Okay. When he would report to you, would it be in reference to how Lisa's watch was going, or would it be in reference to other duties that you had him working on?

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A. It would be in relationship -- in terms of Lisa's watch, he would tell me, you know, they wanted three more people for the watch, and I got so and so, and so and so, and so and so, saw their seniors and it's all coordinated. He would like keep me informed like that.

Q. Okay. So you were being briefed during this period of time after the 23rd of November as to what was going on with Lisa Mcpherson?

A. I was -- well, once the -- I think -- I don't remember the exact days, but it was like once it was settled that certain people were gonna just stay on the watch and stay with her and so on, I didn't hear much about it after that because it didn't require more personnel. It sort of came more on my lines when it required more personnel or changes of people or whatever.

Q. All right. So he also had a duty of reporting the same to Mr. Kartuzinski?

A. It was more like he would organize the personnel, and they would see their seniors, and then they would go over onto the watch. He -- I actually don't know the exact, you know, details after that, but he would make sure that there were enough people for the watch. I don't think he organized it further than

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Q. Okay. What -- what is his -- during this period of time, what was his normal job description? What would he be doing? Who did he work for?

A. Well, he basically works for me on personnel. Like there's three departments in my division that I'm re -- I'm a head of a division. Personnel recruit -- the hiring of personnel and training of personnel on their jobs is one sort of department, and placing new personnel, and then the second department is to do with communications of the organization of -- like letters going out, letters coming in, being answered, et cetera, and internal distribution of communication, and then the third department is to do with inspections and reports, doing like inspections around the org. and things like that, the organization, and he's like the person responsible, like the executive responsible for making sure each department's doing their job. That's his -- his hand, his job.

Q. Okay. Are you aware of him making daily reports or at least weekly reports to Mr. Kartuzinski in reference to how the watch was proceeding'

A. I think it would have been just -- I think in terms of the watch proceeding, he would -- it would be more, I think, Mr. Kartuzinski would tell him how it

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was going with Lisa, if he -- if he -- I don't know what the communication --

Q. Are you aware -- sorry --

A. Sorry.

Q. -- of how Mr. Kartuzinski was getting his/ information as to the procedure and how it was progressing?

A. I presumed he was going down to see her. mean -- and, you know, probably from reports from the people who were on the watches.

Q. Did you ever report to him?

A. No. Not about Lisa, no.

Q. Okay.

A. I mean, when you say "report," I may have spoken to him. After I did the watch that night, I may have -- the next time I saw him I probably commented on it.

Q. Is there anything else that I've neglected to ask you that you feel would be important towards the investigation into Lisa Mcpherson's death during this period of time in November and December of 1995 which you played a role in --

A. No, I don't think so.

Q. -- that you heard or saw or anything?

A. No. I just think we were really trying to

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care for her.

MR. MCGARRY: Okay. The police officers here would probably like to ask you some questions if I've neglected. If you want to take a break, we can take a break. If you'd like to plunge ahead, we can go ahead.

THE WITNESS: No, I'm fine.


Q. Do you have any medical background at all?

A. No.

Q. Okay before 1966 did you have any type of occupation? Did you have a profession?

A. 1986.

Q. Well, you said you started in the church in 66, and then --

A. Oh, yes. I wasn't working full time back -- I actually first came across Scientology in about 1966 --

Q. Okay.

A. -- but I wasn't working on staff until in 1971 in England. Between 66 and 71 I actually worked in computers as a computer programmer and then a systems analyst in computers.

Q. Okay. The only one that told you about her KANABAY COURT REPORTERS. 22 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT

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condition and the cycle was Arthur Baxter?

A. What, in the first place?

Q. Yeah. You said that you got involved because Arthur Baxter asked you to look after Lisa because somebody was tired that was on the watch. What I'm looking for is other people that might have talked to you about the cycle and what was going on.

A. I knew about it before then --

Q. Okay.

A. -- because my junior being involved in finding people trying to watch her, because this was, I don't know, back -- the night I did it, I think she had been there about five or six days or something like that.

Q. Okay.

A. So as soon as -- I mean, I think the very first day -- I don't know if Olivia was involved at all, was asked for personnel, but I'm sure by the second day he was asked to provide people, find people who, you know, would be calm type of people to, you know, be with her.

Q. All right.

A. And then he would have mentioned it to me.

Q. Okay. Have you ever participated in one of these types of cycles before?

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A. Not like this, no. Not somebody -- I mean, I've come across people who are momentarily a little what we call in Scientology restimulated, but I haven't personally watched a person who was type three before. Q Okay. Is it your understanding, as an executive, that this is a procedure -- this cycle is a procedure condoned by the religion, the Church of Scientology?

A. The procedure of watching --

Q. Yeah.

A. -- and keeping them --

Q. Yeah.

A. Oh, totally.

Q. The isolation watch. No one really dreamed this up, this is written policy of your church?

A. Absolutely. I mean, if somebody is very overly restimulated, there's references of keeping them very quiet, very calm --

Q. Okay.

A. -- so that they don't get more restimulated than they already are.

Q. All right. Just before Janice Johnson was slapped by Lisa --

A. Uh-huh.

Q. -- did anything bring that on?

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A. Absolutely nothing that I could -- I could see. I mean, Janice -- I was, like, standing here (indicating,) Janice was like over there (indicating,) and Liza -- I mean Lisa would frantically sort of walk up to you and go (sound effect) and then walk away and so on, and from what I remember, she just walked up to Janice, said something -- started shouting at her and then went like that (indicating) across her face, and Janice just went like (indicating,). but neither of us were talking at all, because the whole thing is to keep it very like quiet and not bring any extra communication in.

Q. All right. What was your understanding of Janice Johnson's role in the cycle?

A. Well, I think that night -- I mean, I don't really have very much data. I think that night she had taken -- she had gone in there because the girls -- like there was Sylvia, and I don't know who was in there before Janice, but I know Sylvia was there. I don't know if it was Sylvia and someone else, and I had understood Janice had gone in because the girls were getting tired, because, you know, it's quite a strain sitting there with somebody who's in that sort of state for a long period of time, so I believe -- what I had understood is that Janice went in and then I went in

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like a little while after that, and we got -- and Sylvia came out. I don't know if there was somebody else in there before Janice, but I believe She was doing it that night because people were tired.

Q. Okay.

A. That's all I really know in that.

Q. Okay. How about -- were you aware of any special training that Janice had other than yourself or other women who were attending to her?

A. I don't know. I don't have any data on that.

Q. , Now, as an executive in the organization --

A. Right.

Q. -- and you're looking at the cycle that's occurring to Lisa McPherson, in your opinion, who. was in charge of this?

A. Overall I would say Alain Kartuzinski.

Q. Okay. And why would that be?

A. Because it's -- it's a sort of technical area, like we have like a technology, right, an applied technology, and there's a technology to help someone like Lisa what we call destimulate, so that would like come under Alain as -- his post is like a case supervisor.

Q. Okay. Now, my understanding of the cycle was that someone who's a PTS three type personality who has

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a psychotic break, the isolation part is to calm them down.

A. Right.

Q. And then once they're calmed down, Alain would do some type of auditing?

A. That's right.

Q. Okay. So that would mean that Alain would be in charge of getting her calmed down, because he would make the decisions of when he'd start to audit her?

A. Right.

Q. I've seen some documents on the introspection run-down procedure. Now, would that be what he would start once she's calmed down?

A. I believe so. I'm not highly technically trained.

Q. He is?

A. I know that's a run-down that you do on somebody who's gone type three.

Q. Okay. The last question I have for you, you said that you think that afterwards or after your watch that you made some, comments to Alain Kartuzinski. Do you remember what those were or the -- or the flavor of those comments?

A. I think that I may have said to him -- I mean, I was a little bit shocked at how crazy she was, KANABAY. COURT REPORTERS 27 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT

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I mean, to be honest --

Q. Okay.

A. -- and I think I said to him, "God, she's really pretty crazy." I mean, I didn't know her before, but, you know, when somebody's that crazy, you can see that they're that crazy.

Q. Okay. So you think that your comments were to the part that "Geez, I went there to help, but I didn't realize how bad she was" -- I mean "crazy she was"? Is that what I'm supposed --

A. Well, no, just -- I mean, I -- you can have like degrees of somebody being type three.

Q. Right.

A. Like you can have somebody who is, you know -- I mean, it can be by sort of degrees. She was what I would call like very, very, very type three.

Q. Okay.

A. And that's what I would have said to him.

Q. In your opinion of the five hours that you spent with her or the four hours that you spent with her--

A. It was about two or three, I think.

Q. Okay. The time that you were there, could she make decisions on her own, you know? Would you feel comfortable with decisions that she would make at

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the time that you saw her?

A. I mean, she seemed incapable of really making decisions.

Q. Okay..

A. Really.

SERGEANT ANDREWS: All right. I don't have anything further.


Q. So if she was incapable of making decisions, who would make decisions for her?

A. I don't know. I mean, when I say incapable, she's like so crazy, like what you and I would call making a decision, she was like --

Q. So if she would have hurt herself, who would have made the decision to take her to the hospital?

A. The -- any person there. I mean --

Q. But-

A. I don't know what she would -- I don't know, really. I mean, like if -- while I was there, if she'd like probably hurt herself, I would have said to Janice, "I'm running to security to get an ambulance," you know, if --

Q. Were you aware that Janice Johnson was a physician, doctor?

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A. I knew she had been a medical doctor prior to coming to the church, yes.

Q. Okay. Were you under the impression that I this watch that you attended, was Janice Johnson's first watch, or did she tell you a1bout the history of this case?

A. She didn't tell me about the history, and I don't know if it was her first watch or not.

Q. Okay. So she never -- she never talked about prior watches with you when you showed up there --

A. No.

Q. -- to clue you in on what was going on?

A. No. We didn't talk at all. It was just like keep it totally quiet.

Q. During this violent episode of Lisa's, did you have to summon the guard, or did you handle this yourselves?

A. We handled it ourselves. I mean, there was a guard outside if -- if we like really would have got into trouble as a sort of safety precaution, because Lisa was quite a big girl and she was actually pretty strong.

Q. So she was pretty strong? What do you 4 estimate her weight was then? Was she pretty heavy?

A. I'm not very good on weights, but she was a

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lot heavier than me. I mean, I'm very skinny, but she's like a lot heavier than me.

Q. Okay.

A. I actually think in stones, and --

Q. Okay

A. -- I don't think in American weights, so I'm not sure in American weight. I mean, I'm about 119, so I would say she was about 135, something like that.

Q. So she was about 135 at this time and strong?

A. Yes. I mean, she was a lot stronger than me.

Q. Okay. Now, your junior, his name is Olivia; is that what it is?

A. That's right.

Q. And he was in charge of scheduling for this watch?

A. I'm not sure if he exactly -- I mean, towards the end, I think it was okay, these prsonnel are over doing the watch, and I'm not sure if Alain worked out-

Q. I'm not sure the right word would be in charge, but his duty was to -- to supply scheduling for Alain Kartuzinski?

A. Well, it was to provide personnel, and I don't know who -- who decided who was gonna do what when, but his job overall would be he would be

page 32

responsible for providing personnel.

Q. Now, did he do that right up until December 5th, until Lisa went to the hospital?

A. I was under the impression that it was like a stable set of people doing it towards the end It change --.

Q. Okay.

A. -- and that that was what Alain wanted, and I don't know how much Olivia after that had to be involved.

Q. Did Olivia ever tell you -- did he ever visit Lisa?

A. I know he went down to check on the girls. I don't know if he went to exactly visit Lisa. He more went to make sure the personnel that were down there were done, you know, and to check if anything else was needed. Q Did he ever voice any concerns to you about Lisa's medical well-being?

A. No.

Q. He never had any alarms for her medically?

A. No.

Q. From what I've read about organizational policies, Alain Kartuzinski, being the senior case supervisor, had the power to stop and start a watch; is

page 33

that correct? He says who goes into the watch and who doesn't?

A. Do you mean which personnel do it --

Q. As far as-

A. -- or whether there should be one or not?

Q. -- the people under him, right.

A. As far as whether there should be one or not, yes, he would determine that.

Q. Okay. So he was the supervisor of Lisa, senior case supervisor?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Have you discussed your testimony here today with anyone other than your attorney before --

A. No. Q.. -- today?

A. No, absolutely not.

Q. When is the last time you talked to anybody about this case --

A. When I spoke to him.

Q. -- besides your attorney?

A. I haven't actually talked to anybody else about it. I mean, I was told, you know, it's my coming here and then I would have him as my -- you know, I could have him as my attorney or go and choose another attorney, and he advised me.

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Q. So you had a choice?

A. Yes, of course. I

SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Okay. I don't I have anything else.

MR. MCGARRY: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. (Whereupon, sworn statement was concluded.)

page 35

STATE OF FLORIDA           )

     I, the undersigned authority, certify that
LESLIE J. WOODCRAFT personally appeared before me and
was duly sworn. 

     WITNESS my hand and official seal this 5th day of
June, 1997.

             KRISTINE M. BLAKE, RNR,
             Notary Public - State of Florida,
             My Commission No. CC523799,
             Expires: 2-21-00. 

             [Notary Seal]

page 36

STATE OF FLORIDA           )

     I, Kristine M. Blake, Registered Professional
Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did
stenographically report the sworn statement of
LESLIE J. WOODCRAFT; that a review of the transcript
was not requested; and that the transcript is a true
and complete record of my stenographic notes.

     I further certify that I am not a relative,
employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties,
nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties'
attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I
financially interested in the action.

     DATED this 5th day of June, 1997.

             KRISTINE M. BLAKE, RNR,
             Notary Public - State of Florida,
             My Commission No. CC523799,
             Expires: 2-21-00. 

             [Notary Seal]