Sworn Statement of Alice Vangrondelle

Date:May 20, 1997







TAKEN BY:                  MARK MCGARRY. 

DATE:                      May 20, 1997. 

BEFORE:                    Kristine N. Blake, RMR, 
                           Notary Public, 
                           State of Florida at large. 

PLACE:                     Criminal Justice Center,
                           Clearwater, Florida. 

      TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
   ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320

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                  Assistant State Attorney,
                  Attorney for State of Florida.

                  ROBERT P. POLLI, ESQUIRE,
                  Barnett Bank Plaza,
                  101 East Kennedy Boulevard,
                  Suite 3130,
                  Tampa, FL 33602.
                  Attorney for Leslie J. Woodcraft. 


                  SPECIAL AGENT LEE STROPE.

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ALICE VANGRONDELLE, the witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

MR. POLLI: My name is Bob Polli. I represent Ms. VanGronde].le, and she's here pursuant to an investigative subpoena issued by the State Attorney's Office.

We have discussed the protections inherent in that subpoena and provided by Florida Statute 914.04. Alice understands what those protections are, and she also understands what her obligations and responsibilities are to -- to tell the truth, and based on all of what I have just said, we're ready to proceed.



Q. My name's Mark McGarry. I'm a prosecutor. I'll be asking you some questions about the death of Lisa McPherson which occurred the end of November, beginning of December, 1995. If you would, state your name for the record.

A. Alice VanGrondelle.

Q. Okay. And your birth date?

A. X, 51.

Q. All right. Where do you reside now?

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A. I live -- where I live is in the Hacienda Gardens over in Clearwater --

Q. Okay.

A. -- off of Saturn and Drew.

Q. Okay. Are you a member of the church?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Are you a staff member of the church?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. How long have you been a staff member of the church?

A. My first point on staff was December 1977.

Q. All right. And how long have you been a Scientologist?

A. That was October of 76.

Q. All right.

A. So a little over 20 years.

Q. All right. How long have you lived in Clearwater?

A. This is three years and about four months.

Q. And where did you come from before that?

A. Chicago.

Q. Okay. Did you come to Clearwater because of the church?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Okay. And you moved here in -- it would have

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been --

A. It was March of 94.

Q. All right. And in 94 did you take a position on the staff in Clearwater at the Flag?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And what position was that?

A. Librarian. I've been the librarian for three years.

Q. Do they have a big library in there?

A. Not like the nice Clearwater library, but it's -- it's good.

Q. Okay. And are your duties the same today?

A. Yes, it is, yeah.

Q. When did you first meet Lisa McPherson?

A. It was that night. That was the first time I had ever seen her.

Q. Okay. You never met her before?

A. Nope.

Q. Do you -- were you contacted by somebody in reference to participating in this post or watch as -- or cycle, whichever you want to call it?

A. Yes. My roommate, Leslie Woodcraft, woke me up and asked me to do this watch.

Q. Okay. Did she explain to you the circumstances that Les -- that Lisa McPherson was in

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right at the time?

A. Not really. She basically told me there was a woman who had a nervous breakdown and that I had to be there, you know, because the other girl who was there had been there quite some time. That was Valerie Demange -- I think you talked to her -- or Demange, and said that she needed me to go because she couldn't herself do it.

Q. Okay. Were you given some instructions as to how you were to handle this cycle?

A. At that moment, no.

Q. Okay. Did you ever receive any instructions as to how to handle the cycle?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And who was that from?

A. Paul Kellerhals, the security chief.

Q. So you met him before you went to the room?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Okay. And what did he tell you?

A. Basically, that we -- we call it the word "psychotic break," and she was basically -- what's the word I'm looking for? Like blubbering, you know, non sequitur communication, and it was like saying kooky things, using a lot of four lettered words. At points she was violent. A lot of talk -- he kept emphasizing KANABAY COURT REPORTERS. 6 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT

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there was a lot of talk about sex, and he gave me some of the four lettered words that she was using. Let's see. Let me think what else he said. And then there would be there a security guard outside, which was Alfonso Barcenas, and that If If I need anything, if she got too much to handle or whatever, I could, you know, call to him and ask for help and there would be somebody to relieve me later.

Q. Okay. Were you given any instructions specifically as to how you were to react if she wanted to leave the room?

A. Not really. I mean, that was never told to me.

Q. Okay.

A. I don't think she even thought about leaving the room, but anyways --

Q. Okay. So approximately what time was it that you began the cycle?

A. Somewhere between two and 2:30 I made it into the room.

Q. That would have been the morning of the 21st?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was it that was in the room when you arrived?

A. It was the girl.

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Q. Valerie?

A. And Valerie.

Q. Oh, Lisa and Valerie?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you gain entry into the room'

A. Well, this is what I don't remember really well. I -- I thought we went right in, but I think there was a key to the room, so -- the security always has the key, so maybe Paul had opened it. I don't remember this exactly.

Q. Okay. And what was Lisa doing when you got into the room?

A. She was sitting on the bed.

Q. Okay. Was she dressed? Was she --

A. Not really. She just had like a little bra and panties on.

Q. Okay.

A. And he told me that she was in bra and panties. Oh, and another thing he told me was how they had found her, which was she was naked along the highway.

Q. So at that time, on the 21st, had she had somebody go pick up her clothes yet or she was still there in the clothing she came in the hospital from or --

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A. Well --

Q. -- do you know?

A. Well, when I first came there, I just was there with her, and the room was cold. The room was actually cold and I thought oh, my God, isn't she cold with a little bra and panties on, because I had my sweats on, you know, my little thermals, and I thought well, we'll see what happens, because I heard she was violent, so I didn't want to get too close to her at first. And then she seemed more approachable, and she actually came and sat next to me and started talking to me with this gibberish stuff, so at that point I had touched her hand or she had touched mine, and I said oh, my God, she's cold, so then I gave her a little note and I said, "Are you cold?" And she wrote back "Yes." So I assumed her clothes were around the corner, so I went to the closet, and then there were two pieces of luggage, real nice luggage, and I opened it up and I pointed, and she looked blank, so I said -- well, I pulled up a pair of jeans and she went (indicating.) She put them on, slid them on and I tried to find a warmer shirt in there, and they were all these thin cotton shirts for Clearwater, and I thought oh, my God, what am I going to do, and so I

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gave her the one that looked -- had long sleeves on it, so I gave her that and socks and shoes. She put everything on. And then she loved my coat. I had a coat, like really thick quilted coat with me that had like a fur on it, and she loved it, and I gave it to her and she wore that the whole time.

Q. Did she exhibit any other bizarre behavior -- how long was your watch?

A. Let's see. So that was 1:30, 12, two -- so that would have been about 16 hours.

Q. Wow, around the clock and then some?

A. (Nodding head.)

Q. All right. Well, let's go. through the -- that whole period. On into the early morning hours, did she ever go to sleep?

A. (Nodding head.)

Q. She did?

A. Yeah. It was probably about 3:30, four o'clock. You know, I kept mentioning -- I would go like this (indicating,) and she goes, "Oh, you want me to lay down," and I went (indicating,) "Yes," and then she finally did and slept until about six, 6:30.

Q. All right. Was there any -- did you administer any medication or feed her at any time from between 1:30 and when she woke up? Did you feed her or

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did she eat or did she get any medicine?

A. Well, during the period I was there, not during her sleep, of course, I tried to give her these herbs. They're like to help sleep, the Valerian Root, and she kept taking them, and she'd take one of the bottles of water -- there was a number of bottles of water -- and she'd suck it in, and I'd think oh, good, we're going to get this down, and she'd spit it back into the bottle. There was like four bottles like that that had the herbs inside of them.

Q. All right.

A. And then the -- after then, after she woke up -- it was within an hour or so of her waking up -- I think I slipped her a note, "Are you hungry?" and she said, "Yes." I said, "Well, what do you want?" and she said, "A shake." And I went "Uh-huh," so I opened the door and I said, "Alfonso, we need some food," and he says, "Well, what do you want me to bring?" I said, "Well, bring a normal breakfast, eggs and potatoes, and then bring a protein shake, because she really wants a shake." That was the main thing she wanted, so they made her this huge -- it must have been almost a quart shake with protein, bananas, strawberries, some kind of a fruit, I think. It looked fantastic, and they had the, you know, little -- how you decorate them with the

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little orange slices or strawberries on the top. That's how it came, and there was this huge tray of food. It was eggs for at least three people, potatoes, toast.

Q. What time was that?

A. That was about -- it finally came, I think, about 9:30.

Q. Okay. Did she eat that?

A. She ate some of the eggs, some of the potatoes and drank the. entire shake. Had a little bit of orange juice. There were two big glasses of juice also.

Q. This entire 16-hour period, were you alone or was there anybody with you?

A. I was alone except for Alfonso outside.

Q. Right. Did -- how about during the rest of that stay? Did she exhibit any bizarre behavior or do anything that was unusual that you should -- that you -- that you can recall?

A. I recall everything.

Q. Okay.

A. It was completely bizarre. She had this thing --

Q. Why don't you go through that as best you can and give us the highlights.

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MR. POLLI: Slowly, because she has to try to copy --

THE WITNESS: Sorry. I talk fast, too. I had to -- some coffee and I'm like blah, la, la, la,la. So one of the things she did was this thing like an eight count. Somebody told me she was a dancer. I don't know if it was true or not. She'd go eight count and then she'd do this (indicating.) I thought what the hell is that, and she did that lots of times, I mean, maybe 30, 40 times during the whole day, and then different communications about different people I never heard of. It must have been, you know, either people -- friends of hers or, you know -- I don't remember. -- some guy's name that she mentioned, you know, "If he was here, I'd like to see him. He was so much to me," and then -- then she'd go off onto something else. And all of a sudden, she'd burst into tears and say, "E.T. go home," and she'd be crying, "E.T. go home," and then -- let's see. Then mentioned some woman's name and, you know, how much fun she had. They used to go to bars and go drinking and dancing, and -- but none of it was like related. It wasn't like it was a communication that flowed, it was just like a bit of

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this communication and a bit of that communication, and then back to the eight count, and --

Q. Did she ever talk about her job?

A. No. There was nothing about work or anything like that. And then at one point, it was about mid-afternoon, four o'clock in the afternoon -- oh, and there was points -- let me tell you the other things she did, like, you know, normal communication between two social people. She'd come over and put her legs on top of mine and be sitting there blabbering some gibberish and put her arm around me and -- and talking and stuff like this, but about four o'clock in the afternoon -- oh, and then she cried a couple times on my shoulder. She kept saying, "E.T. go home," and then she would cry. And then about four in the afternoon she had one of these violent fits, and it shocked me, because she was real calm up to that point except for these kooky things she was saying, and she was very active, too, you know, moved around all over the place all the time, and she -- oh, and she was spitting a lot. That was another thing. She'd spit all the time, spit on the floor, spit into her juice and spit on the food. And then one point she spit and she threw my coat on top of it. I was like oh, God. And then she

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got violent and started kicking the dresser, and I was very afraid she was going to break her leg or something. I mean, she was like -- the body was going nuts, you know, kick the dresser and then started swearing, and I said, "Alfonso, could you come in here a second?" I was a little freaked out, and she started swinging at me and she hit me on the side and bruised my arm, and then said some horrible profanities about men and the things they can do and talked about a lot of sexual things, you know. I don't know if you want the exact specifics, but --

Q. No, I think we get the gist of it.

A. Yeah. And that lasted about 45 minutes. And then she kind of sat back down on the bed again and --

Q. All right. Who relieved your shift?

A. It was Valerie.

Q. Okay. Did she get another meal before the end of that shift?

A. No. The shake she drank until about two in the afternoon, but then she did finish it.

Q. All right. Did you provide a report to security in reference to your observations of that particular day?

A. Yes, I did.

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Q. And who did you hand that report to?

A. I actually didn't hand it to anyone. I sent it in our communication system. I don't know if anybody's told you about -- like we have a system --

Q. Uh-huh.

A. -- where. a communications officer will run around and pick up the various baskets.

Q. All right. And did you describe in your report what you just told me?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Okay. And how was that routed and who was it routed to?

A. It was -- I actually wrote the report on Leslie because I was upset that she woke me up and made me do the cycle, so I routed a copy to her and one to her file and then, like you said, routed one to security and -- oh, and one to Alain, the case supervisor.

Q. So you made three copies?

A. Yes. That was one, two, security, Alain. That's four, and then I had one in my own file.

MR. MCGARRY: Okay. Do you have any objection if we can obtain that report to read it or do we have it, do you know, Wayne?

SERGEANT ANDREWS: I don't think we have

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it, but we have the reports here that maybe she can look through.

MR. POLLI: We looked.

SERGEANT ANDREWS: It's not there?

THE WITNESS: This is the one you showed me.


Q. In the event we can obtain that, do you have any problem with me looking at it?

A. Not at all. It's exactly what I just told you. I didn't leave out anything.

Q. All right. Did you have any other contact with Lisa McPherson after the 2 1st?

A. No, I didn't.

Q. Okay. Did you -- did you attend a meeting that was called by Marcus Quirino in reference to the people that were taking care of Lisa? I think this meeting occurred somewhere around or after December 5th.

A. No.

Q. Okay. Do you know -- did you have any conversations with Mr. Kartuzinski other than the report that you routed to him?

A. No. He works in a completely different building than I do.

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Q. Okay. Who is your senior?

A. Her name is Linda Thames. She's a director of correction.

Q. Okay. She doesn't have anything to do with this, with Lisa Mcpherson?

A. Zero.

Q. Okay. So you got drug into this by Leslie?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the proper word to use, "drug into it"?

A. That was good. Works for me.

Q. All right. Is there anything else that you can recall that you know that had something to do with Lisa McPherson's stay at the church there during this two-week period in November of 95 that we might like to know about in reference to her death?

A. Well, one thing that I brought up to my attorney was she was in physically good condition when I ran into her, you know, because I noticed she was very strong, because she hit me, and when I dressed her I noticed that there were like no bruises on her body or any marks. She had good skin, you know, a good skin tone. I did notice there was some like red marks on her face, like a blotch. I wondered if she had like a measle or something, but then I wasn't sure if

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measles, you could see them on the arms or not. I knew it wasn't chicken pox, because chicken pox you would see on the rest of the body, but there was, I would say, a half dozen red marks on the face, and then when I felt her head -- she got close enough to me and I wanted to see if she had any type of a temperature, and I felt that she had -- I felt she was a little warm.

Q. Right.

A. You know, above what a normal temperature would be. That's one of the reasons why I dressed her, I made sure she had clothes on and stuff.

Q. Do you have any medical training?

A. Not really. I'm a chemist. I was a chemist before I came in.

Q. Where'd you go to school?

A. A small one in Iowa. It was right at the time. I majored in chemistry with a -- the school I went to was a small one in Iowa and it ranked sixth in the nation.

Q. You majored in chemistry?

A. Yes. I'm sorry, what was your question, sir?

Q. I was just, you know, interested in your -- why you went through chemistry and ended up as a librarian.

A. That's an excellent question. I guess

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because of my -- I have a very varied background. I have a major in chemistry and math, a biology minor. also -- when I got out of school, I continued in school in the arts, so I have a big photographic career, oil painting, drawing, macrame, sewing. I've done lots and lots of things, so as a librarian, it helps when people come in and ask where do I find this or where do you clear this mathematical term.

Q. How do you staff or stock the library at the church? How does that regenerate itself? Do you constantly -- are you in charge of the buying and purchasing of books for that?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Okay. Is there any kind of guidelines that -- this is just aside from --

A. Yeah. I try to provide references that give a lot of pictures and simple definitions for people. You know, they have these books out now that are like these eyewitness books. I don't know if you've ever seen them, but they have large pictures of things and clear definitions, because one of the things school is lacking right now is not enough actual math or the things that you want to clear up, you know, like if you're in math, what do you use math for, what is the practical application of it, so the things that I buy

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give people more practical usage of the material so they can remember it.

Q. Are you in charge of a budget for that?

A. No. The budget gets cleared through the overall church, and then they allot so much to different areas.

MR. MCGARRY: Okay. That's all I have. These officers here would probably like to ask you some questions --


MR. MCGARRY: -- so if you want to take a break or plunge ahead, we can go on ahead with that.

THE WITNESS: I'm cool.


Q. All right. The report you wrote, I noticed that when you said you made copies, you had kept a copy in your own file.

A. Yes.

Q. Is that your own file at Hacienda Gardens?

A. No. It's in the library. I have a file that I'd keep things that I thought were important.

Q. Like I keep a correspondence file. Is that what-

A. Yes.

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Q. So you would have a copy of that in your library right now?

A. I did. About three months ago I had discovered it, and I went "Oh, good." And I reread it, and I said, "So this is what I said. This is what occurred," and I said it was all there, so I thought well, I'll get it to Paul Kellerhals, because they'll probably need this, so I folded it up and I put a white paper on top of it and I put "Security Chief Paul," and I started bringing it over to the security office, which is in a separate building than mine, and I ran into one of the security guards and I handed it to him, and I said, "Can you give this to Paul," and he said, "Yes," and that was three months ago. And evidently, they can't find that copy.

Q. Okay. Do you remember which security guard it was that you gave it to?

A. Yeah, John Zacks.

Q. John --

A. -- Zacks, Z-a-c-k-s.

Q. Okay. Do you remember any of your chemistry stuff, your chemicals and things or --

A. Yes, pretty good.

Q. Okay. I would like to reference this report, and I'll give you a copy to look at.

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A. Okay.

Q. This report's written on November 21st, okay, and it's from Valerie Demange.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. All right And she wrote it at 12 p.m., which, I would assume, would be noontime on the 21st.

A. Okay.

Q. And you came on the watch at 12 something that night?

A. 12 p.m. Oh, so she wrote this the next day.

Q. Yeah, she wrote it at 12 p.m. Now, you came on watch on the 21st of November?

A. Yeah. It says 21.

Q. I'm sorry, is it real bad?

A. No, no, it's fine. It just was --

Q. This is the 21st of November, 95, and she wrote it at 12 p.m., but her first statement is that she arrived on the watch at one a.m.?

A. Right.

Q. So both of you are arriving on the watch at about the same time?

A. Yeah, but hers was on the -- the day prior. Hers was on the 20th. She's writing this on the 21st. That's the next day.

MR. POLLI: Remember, she gets here on

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the 21st at one a.m. --

THE WITNESS: I'm On the --

MR. POLLI: -- by herself.

THE WITNESS: She's writing this while I'm already in there.

MR. POLLI: She's not on the watch with her. She's left, gone to sleep, got back the next day at noon and decided to write --

THE WITNESS: The report.


Q. I'm confused. You arrived on the 21st after midnight.

MR. POLLI: At one a.m.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was actually at one a.m. on the 21st.


Q. Right.

A. Not the 22nd.

Q. And this is -- she arrives at one a.m. on the 21st, according to this report.

A. No, it doesn't say the 21st. She arrived on the watch at one a.m. This was the watch right before mine.

SERGEANT ANDREWS: Am I off here? Is it a personal thing that I'm not catching?

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THE WITNESS: Can I have the little calendar? I'll show him.

SERGEANT ANDREWS: I've got one -- I've got a blank here.

THE WITNESS: He's got one, too. Okay. This is November. Here I come in as of this night into this morning (indicating.)


THE WITNESS: She's writing the report right here in the middle of the day (indicating.)


Q. Yeah. She's writing it at 12 p.m. in the middle of the day?

A. Yeah, but she's not on the watch with me, she's on her watch.

Q. "I arrived on the watch at one a.m."

A. Understood, on the 19th.

Q. Which?

A. 19th or 20th. She's talking about the day prior. This is when she wrote the report, not when she was on the watch. This is the day she wrote the report. We date them the day we write the report.

MR. POLLI: Is that going to affect your question?

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Q. Yeah. If you read the report, it's very similar to the testimony here. We're talking about eggs, big shakes, drinks, and it appears to me that the two women are -- they're together, Demange and -- and Alice here are there together.

A. Unh-unh.

Q. And so.that's -- that's the problem I have with the report. If it's at noontime on the 21st and she's getting off of her watch because she's been there since one a.m. -- she arrives there at one a.m. --

A. The day before.

Q. -- and she gets off at noontime, that's her 12-hour watch, so I'm a little confused, because it would not be dated the 2 1st. You're saying that she worked on the 20th, she came in on the night of the 20th at one a.m.?

A. Right.

Q. And worked until --

A. I relieved her that night.

MR. POLLI: At one a.m., whatever time it is she got there on the 21st.


Q. Okay. So she -- so you relieved --

MR. POLLI: And then Valerie comes back

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after sleep and --



Q. The reason I was asking, in the report it says 9:30 I gave her all these vitamins, and I was thinking you were there, because the testimony that you gave about the eggs and everything -- you know, she arrived and got the eggs and toast and all and a big drink -- all sounded familiar.

A. Yeah.

Q. But that's not true? You were there by yourself?

A. I was by myself.

Q. Okay.

A. Except for Alfonso outside. I was in the room with her alone.

Q. On the 21st?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you write your report much like this?.

A. Not -- well -- I mean, there are some differences. Mine said "Ethics" and then a copy to Leslie, and there was a copy to security and then a copy to the CS it said here on the top, and then I had my date here. I didn't put a time, though, like this.

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Q. Okay. And this report of Valerie's way up on the top -- and it's real difficult to see -- says "Rush." Now, you apparently -- here, I'll show you mine.

A. I see it. I see it.

Q. It says "Rush." Apparently you're very familiar with the mail courier system. What would that mean to you? This says to SNRC slash S.

A. This means senior.

Q. Senior case supervisors?

A. Flag Service Org.

Q. And then there's a rush on it. Is that handled differently?

A. Yes, it is. What happens is there's three baskets. The top one is for things coming in. The second one is for things going out, and the third basket is the rush, so if there's a communication runner -- and they may have a separate communication run for the rush particles, you know. They'd say oh, okay, it's two o'clock. We have a rush run. Everybody goes around to the rush baskets and takes em. Then it goes rush right to the next person.

Q. Now, would it not be unusual -- and this is probably conjecture on your part, but you seem to be very in tune with the church's systems. Would it not

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be -- or would it be unusual that Valerie Demange would go ahead and work a watch until one a.m, in the morning when you relieve her on the 21st, then go ahead and wait until 12 p.m. the next day or that same day, 12 p m the next day, which is 12 hours later, and then write this report about Lisa's condition with a rush on the top?

A. Well, that's a good question. I think -- if it was me -- now, like you said, this is hypothetical.

Q. Right. I'm asking for conjecture, and I understand that..

A. I would have been so tired I would have gone to bed, too, after a hell raising day with this woman. When I got out of there, I could not wait to get out of there. I mean, I don't know if you've ever been to an institution.

Q. Yeah.

A. You know how crazy some of these guys are and the kooky things they do.

Q. How exhausting it is., I understand. I felt it was kind of funny that she would wait 12 hours to write a report and then indicate "Rush" on this report. You know, to me, if it was -- if I related it to. police matters and my boss said to me, "Listen, this is very important," I would stay up, write the report when you

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relieved me, maybe in housekeeping next door, then put the report in the basket and put "Rush" on it, so I guess your answer is yes, it's a little unusual?

A. I don't know it it's -- I think I would have done the same thing personally --

Q. Okay. All right.

A. -- just because I would be so tired and wanted to get the heck out of there.

Q. All right. Let's go to this report, and we talk about 9:30 a.m.

A. All right. Right here, "This morning about 9:30."

Q. Yeah. "I got her to take 200 milligrams of B-1."

A. Right.

Q. Vitamin?

A. Yeah. It's a B vitamin usually associated with mental stress. It's something you'll burn up a lot, so if you have like a stressful --

Q. So if you have a stressful job, you should be taking B-1?

A. Yeah.

Q. A thousand milligrams of C vitamin?

A. Right. And that's usually for infections or --

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Q. Colds. I hear that you take it for colds.

A. Yeah, good for colds. It also helps B-i go into the system better, so you try to kind of balance them.

Q. (200 milligrams of potassium.

A. Yeah. It's used -- it's an electrolyte. You use it. Cells will take it in, and it helps refresh -- you know, like if you've been sweating a lot or something like that, you would take potassium, and it's good for the headaches, by the way.

Q. And we have 100 milligrams of B-6.

A. It's just another B vitamin. Also for stress or anything related to mental functions.

Q. All right. Now, it says "Cal-Mag."

A. Right. Calcium-Magnesium.

Q. All right. Now, what's that for?

A. It's minerals.

Q. Okay.

A. You know, for women, it's kind of vital, you know, for the osteoporosis.

Q. And the bones?

A. And the bones and stuff like that.

Q. Now, the protein drinks, what do they put in protein drinks? Do you know?

A. Yeah. Well, when I opened it up to see what

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was inside, you know, because I checked everything out, I could smell the fruit from it, so I knew there was like bananas and strawberries, because there was a pink color to it. I could smell the bananas and strawberries. Some kind of a cream, because it was whitish, and they put in a couple scoops of protein inside of it.

Q. Okay. Now, on

A. Maybe eggs were in it. I don't know. I never asked that, but --

Q. On Valerie's report dated the 21st, we're assuming she's writing about the 20th?

A. Yes.

Q. So the night of the 20th by this report means that Lisa slept about eight hours?

A. (Nodding head.)

Q. Okay. While you were on the watch, had you seen any of these vitamins and/or drugs that possibly were given to Lisa?

A. I did see a bottle of the B-1.

Q. Okay.

A. I remember that. I don't recall these other bottles, but I tried to keep my attention on her, so I wasn't really looking around to see what was in the room, you know.

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Q. All right.

A. My attention was make sure she didn't hurt herself if she got up and was crazy or --

Q. Did you see any syringes in the room or needles at all?

A. Oh, no. That I would have seen.

Q. I looked at some of these reports, and I know you probably haven't had much chance to look at em.

A. No, I didn't look at em.

Q. This report before this is dated the 20th, 11-20 of 95.

A. Okay.

Q. Now, it's already been given in testimony that this is Alain Kartuzinski's writing on the question right here. See "How much has she slept?"

A. (Nodding head.)

Q. Okay. And Allen Baxter's testimony that he filled them in.

MR. POLLI: Arthur Baxter.


Q. I'm sorry, Arthur Baxter.

A. This is Arthur' s?

Q. That's Arthur's writing. Now, this is on the 20th. If you read through this, she's not eating, she's not sleeping,

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she's spitting out everything on the 20th, absolutely not taking vitamins, wouldn't take anything. A dismal picture --

A. Yup.

Q. -- on the 20th --

A. Yup.

Q. -- at 12:16 p.m., which would be the afternoon --

A. Okay.

Q. -- when you're saying -- when you're saying that Valerie Demange wrote this report, so she's writing -- the same time frame she's writing a beautiful picture of this woman sleeping eight hours and Arthur Baxter's writing a report saying she's not sleeping at all?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Which this would be during the day, okay.

A. Well, it says 12:16 on November 20th, 50 that's when he wrote this.

Q. He wrote the report?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And what I'm kind of getting at is -- I'm not trying to belabor it, but what I'm getting at is are you familiar with the drug Valium? Have you ever taken it?

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A. Oh, no. I have had no drugs this lifetime. Aspirin and cold --

MR. POLLI: Was all that leading up to the Valium?

SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah, it's leading up to the Valium.

MR. POLLI: Because I've got three pages of the question.


Q. It was leading into Valium, and the only reason it's leading into the Valium is we have Arthur Baxter here writing a report she's not sleeping, not eating and not drinking, and you have Valerie Demange showing up and saying that she slept for eight hours.

A. Where does it say she slept the eight hours? That's the only thing I didn't see.

Q. Okay.

A. I was looking at this trying to figure out --

Q. "Lisa slept about eight hours."

A. Oh, yeah, okay. Good.. I didn't see that, because you asked me to look at the 9:30 thing. Okay. Good.

Q. And the reason I'm asking her the questions is, in our previous testimony Valium shows up on the 20th, okay, injectable Valium shows up on the 2 0th.

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A. Really?

Q. Okay. So here we have a woman who is not sleeping, not eating, not drinking, okay, by one person. Valium shows up, but the testimony is they probably never gave it to her, but all of a sudden --

A. wasn't the Valerian Root?

Q. No, it was injectable Valium. So what I'm trying to get at is that in your report, did you write that she slept?

A. Two hours.

Q. Two hours?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. You wrote in your report she slept?

A. Two hours.

Q. Two hours? Okay. So if we're to assume the Valium was administered here and kicked in, it was during this eight hours or this eight-hour or this 12-hour period of Demange and not your watch?

A. Well, there was no -- the thing I had in there, I had Valerian Root. I've used it before, so I know what it is. I've seen the bottle of B-1. I don't know if there was another bottle of C. There might have been other things.

Q. Did you see any clear liquids that would have been in an injectable bottle?

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A. No. There was clear liquids to drink.

Q. To drink?

A. It was that crystal water or whatever they call it.

Q. Okay.

A. Like an Evian. I don't know what they call it here, but it's like an Evian.


Q. I just have a couple. During the 16 hours that you were with Lisa, did anybody come to visit besides the guard outside the door?

A. I noticed when I asked for the food they -- they had put another guard out there, and evidently --

Q. Another guard or a different guard?

A. A different guy. A different guard.

Q. Who was that? A.. I don't remember. It was one of the Hungarian guys.

Q. Do you remember his name?

A. I don't know all the staff. We have eight hundred staff, so --

Q. But you only have 15 guards. Do you remember

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his name?

A. Not really.

Q. Okay.

A. It was a Hungarian guy. I remember that.

Q. So aside from him, nobody came in the room for 16 hours?

A. No. It was me.

Q. Was there a telephone in the room?

A. See, somebody asked me that, too, and I don't remember a telephone. I mean, there could have been.

Q. What -- how did you communicate with outside, just through the guard?

A. Yeah, I just opened up the door.

Q. So in 16 hours nobody came to see Lisa?

A. No.

Q. Did her family ever come to see her?

A. No.

Q. Did she ever say she wanted to see her family?

A. No.

Q. During the 16 hours, did she ever once walk towards the door, want to leave, say "Let me out of here"?

A. No. She mentioned at one point, you know, "Could we go to the pool?" And I thought yeah, it's a

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nice day, we could probably do something like that, but I knew she was strong, because by then I had worked with her for a little bit, and then if she went bananas and jumped in the pool and tried to drown herself or jumped in front of a car, what was I gonna do? She would be killing herself. She was not in her right mind.

Q. So--

A. No, I was too worried that she'd hurt herself. That was my main thing.

Q. Were you under orders not to let her leave?

A. No, no one ever mentioned that to me.

Q. No one ever said make sure she stays where she belongs?

A. No, not once. Not once.

Q. When you say she got violent, you called Alfonso to help you out?

A. Yeah.

Q. Did he come into the room?

A. He opened the door and he walked into the doorway, but he actually did not come into the room with me.

Q. Did -- what happened with her? Did she remain violent?

A. No.

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Q. And he stood there and watched; is that it?

A. Yeah.

Q. Didn't do anything?

A. No.

Q. What did she do during this fit of violence that was --

A. Well, she was standing and she started swearing and throwing her arms like this (indicating,) and she was going -- you know, the facial contortions when someone's angry, and she took her leg and she kicked the dresser. I thought oh, my God, she's going to break her leg. That was my first thought. And then I started going towards her, and she pointed at me and had these darting eyes toward me and how he was going to do some vulgar actions to me and going into this whole vulgar trip and men, la, la, la, and then she came at me swinging, and she finally did hit me.

Q. What did you do?

A. I made sure she didn't knock me in the face and get a shiner.

Q. And what was Alfonso doing during this whole time, just standing there?

A. Just stood there.

Q. So what was Alfonso doing during this violent encounter?

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A. Nothing. He just stood there by the doorway.

Q. Didn't come up and try to get between you?

A. No.

Q. You mentioned that you wrote a report and you didn't write the report on Lisa but you wrote it on Leslie?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Explain that to me.

A. Well, it's not the normal action to wake somebody up in the middle of the night and have them go do something that's not their normal job. See, I'm on a public line where I am the librarian. There's nobody else in the library but me, so if I'm not there the next day, that means there's nobody there to help people and -- when they have questions and people who call in, so there was nobody there.

Q. So, basically, instead of going to Leslie, you just wrote a note or a memo to her file?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was the same memo that you wrote and you put in your own file --

A. Yes.

Q. -- that you later said you gave to the security officer?

A. That's right.

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Q. So you knew that there were other copies of that around when you gave it to the security officer?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. It's not like -- that it was going to get lost or anything?

A. No.

Q. When's the last time you saw that report?

A. Like I said, three months ago was when I pulled it out of my file. I said, "Oh, good, here it is," and --

Q. Other than your attorney, Bob, when's the last time you discussed that memo with anybody?

A. He was it.

Q. Okay.

A. He and I had an interview with -- help me with the names.

MR. POLLI: Sandy and Lee?


Q. Sandy Weinberg and Lee Fugate?

A. Yes.

Q. The organization's counsel?

A. Yes. They had asked me similar questions to all this, and I mentioned -- I brought up the report again and who I routed it to.

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Q. Anybody ever tell you what to say or what not to say?

A. No, no, no, because one of the things he told me, I had to have a truthful conversation. It couldn't be altered or changed, and he said he would --

Q. So he explained perjury to you?

A. Oh, yeah.

Q. Who was in charge of this watch to your -- in your opinion? Who was the number one person who was in charge of this watch who could put an end to it?

A. Who would have put an end to it?

Q. Who had the power to say okay, it's over?

A. It's such an oddball cycle. I felt like security was running it personally, you know, because he was the one to tell me, you know --

Q. You seem pretty schooled in the church's policies and procedures. What is the policy and procedure, say, of who's in charge of a watch?

A. I've never seen one.

Q. Never seen one?.

A. I have never seen one..

Q. Are you aware of the senior case supervisor's position and authority over a -

A. Not really. He's in charge of her well-being, you know, her mental state and how she's

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doing spiritually.

Q. So you don't have the knowledge required to know who was who in that particular circumstance?

A. Yeah. I mean, to me a watch is something that security would run.

Q. Have you ever been involved in a watch before?

A. Not like this. There was a girl in L.A. who supposedly had a nervous breakdown, and she was staying in a beautiful home in a real nice part of L.A. It was up in the -- what do they call that place over there?

Q. That -- did that particular watch end the same way?

A. Oh, no. She actually -- she recovered and she was doing great. In fact, when I got there, she was carrying on normal communications and, you know, we went for a walk. I mean, it was nothing like this.

Q. When Sergeant Andrews asked you about different chemicals and medicines that were in the room, did you see any prescription type bottles in the room?

A. Nothing.

Q. Now, you were in the room for 16 hours?

A. Right.

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Q. In 16 hours you probably know every crack in the ceiling, you knows, everything that was in that room. If it was there, you'd see it, right?

A. The stuff I told you I saw, I saw. I saw the B vitamin, I saw the Valerian Root, because that was what I went over to give her. If C was there, I don't remember it.

Q. So -- but if there was something in the room, you would have seen it? In 16 hours in that room, you would have seen everything in that room, right?

A. The things that were noticeable anyway.

Q. And you described Lisa's condition, physical condition as --

A. I mean, she looked good except for -- like I said, she was strong. She wasn't skinny. Her pants fit her just right, you know. She looked physically okay.

Q. Okay.

A. Not ashen or gray or --

Q. Her clothes fit her the way they should fit her?

A. Yeah.

Q. Not too small or too big?

A. No, weren't too small, weren't too big. She didn't have bulges or anything over. It wasn't too

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small where in her waist it fit her.

Q. So her clothes were normal fitting at that time?

A. Yes.

SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: I don't have anything else.



Q. Your meeting with Sandy Weinberg and Lee Fugate, was that after you've gotten your attorney now or before?

A. Before.

Q. Before. Was it several months ago or --

A. Let's see. We met the first time about three weeks ago.

MR. POLLI: We tried to figure it out. It was five or six weeks ago. We figured it out.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, probably five or six weeks ago. This is May.




Q. Are you familiar with a gentleman named Farney, Lynn Farney?

A. I've known him for many years. I've never

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seen him out here.

Q. You've never talked to him about this case?

A. Oh, no. We've been friends for years. I've known him, but I haven't seen him in at least six years. He's in L.A.

MR. MCGARRY: All right. Thank you.

SERGEANT ANDREWS: Thank you very much.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

(Whereupon, sworn statement was concluded.)

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STATE OF FLORIDA           )

     I, the undersigned authority, certify that
ALICE VANGRONDELLE personally appeared before me and
was duly sworn. 

     WITNESS my hand and official seal this 5th day of
June, 1997.

             KRISTINE M. BLAKE, RNR,
             Notary Public - State of Florida,
             My Commission No. CC523799,
             Expires: 2-21-00. 

             [Notary Seal]