Sworn Statement of Attila Madyas Toth

Date:August 14, 1997



      IN RE:


      DATE:               August 14, 1997

      TIME:               Began: 9:00 a.m.
                          Ended: 10:30 a.m.

      PLACE:              Criminal Justice Center
                          Office of the State Attorney
                          Room 1000
                          Clearwater, Florida

      REPORTED BY:        Ruth M. Martin, CSR, CP, RMR
                          Registered Merit Reporter
                          Notary Public
                          State of Florida at Large

                        KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
               ST. PETERSBURG/CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320


      1    APPEARANCES:

      2          MARK McGARRY, ESQUIRE
                 Office of the State Attorney
      3          Criminal Justice Complex, Room 1000
                 Clearwater, Florida 33760
      4               Attorney for State of Florida

      5          KEVIN DARKEN, ESQUIRE
                 Trenam Kemker Scharf Barkin
      6          Frye O'Neill & Mullis, P.A.
                 Barnett Plaza, Suite 2700
      7          101 East Kennedy Boulevard
                 Tampa, Florida 33602
      8               Attorney for the Witness
           ALSO PRESENT:
                 WAYNE C. ANDREWS, Detective Sergeant
      11         JORGE E. CARBASQUILLO, Detective
                 City of Clearwater Police Department
      18                             INDEX
      19    EXAMINATION                                  PAGE
      20         BY MR. McGARRY                             3
                 BY DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS             31
      21         BY DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO                 51
      23    CERTIFICATE OF OATH                            65
                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320


      1          The deponent herein,
      2               ATTILA MADYAS TOTH,
      3    being first duly sworn to tell the truth, the
      4    whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
      5    examined and testified as follows:
      6               MR. McGARRY: Would you like to put anything
      7    on the record in reference to the subpoena that he's
      8    here in reference to?
      9               MR. DARKEN: Sure.
      10              Mr. Toth is here pursuant to the.
      11   State Attorney subpoena for an investigatory
      12   deposition. Concerning his Fifth Amendment privileges
      13   against self-incrimination, he's testifying under the
      14   immunity provisions of Florida Statute 914.04.
      15                 EXAMINATION
      16   BY MR. McGARRY:
      17         Q.   All right. For the record, your name, please.
      18         A.   My name?
      19         Q.   Yes.
      20         A.   Attila Madyas Toth.
      21         Q.   And your date of birth?
      22         A.   `67, X.
      23         Q.   And are you a U.S. Citizen?
      24         A.   No.
      25         Q.   What country are you a citizen of?


      1          A.   Hungarian.
      2          Q.   Hungarian?
      3          A.   (The witness nods affirmatively.)
      4          Q.   How long have you been in the United States?
      5          A.   Since `92.
      6          Q.   And do you have a Green Card?
      7          A.   Yeah.
      8          Q.   How long have you lived in Clearwater?
      9          A.   I was living in Clearwater until October, `96, and
      10   then I am living X right now.
      11         Q.   You're in X?
      12         A.   (The witness nods affirmatively.)
      13              Is just basically almost Clearwater.
      14         Q.   So in 1992 you moved to Clearwater?
      15         A.   Uh-huh.
      16         Q.   And why did you move to Clearwater?
      17         A.   Come to the Church.
      18         Q.   Were you a member how long have you been a
      19   member of the Church?
      20         A.   Around that time.
      21         Q.   `92?
      22         A.   Yeah. Before that I was no -- like in Hungary the
      23   Church at that time not existed, just the new books came
      24   out, so ...
      25         Q.   So did you join the Church in Hungary or did you


      1    join the  Church in Clearwater?
      2          A.   Officially I joined here.
      3          Q.   Okay. And when did you become Staff?
      4               I take it you're Staff now?
      5          A.   No.
      6          Q.   You're not Staff now?
      7          A.   No.
      8          Q.   You were Staff though?
      9          A.   Uh-huh.
      10         Q.   Okay. When did you become Staff?
      11         A.   `92, June.
      12         Q.   Okay. And what position did you take on Staff?
      13         A.   Let me see. I was cook, and then I was a
      14   housekeeper, and then I was a night cleaner, and then I was
      15   security.
      16         Q.   When was it you became involved in security?
      17         A.   I think it was `93, 1st of July.
      18         Q.   And during that period of time, where did you
      19   live?
      20         A.   On the Hacienda Gardens.
      21         Q.   Okay. Did you have a roommate?
      22         A.   Yeah, I have more roommates over the time when I
      23   was  there.
      24         Q.   Okay. Were you getting any spiritual counsel
      25   during that period of time?


      1          A.   Yes, some.
      2          Q.   Who was your Senior?
      3          A.   My Senior, it's the Security Chief, which -- which
      4    I had like three or four different Security Chiefs the four
      5    year I was there, so
      6          Q.   Okay. Why don't you name them for me.
      7          A.   There was one called Bruce Botcher, there was one
      8    called Arthur Baxter, there was one called -- God, I don't
      9    remember the names.
      10         Q.   How about Alfonso Barcenas?
      11         A.   No.
      12         Q.   How about Paul Kellerhaus?
      13         A.   He was the Senior of my Senior.
      14         Q.   Okay.
      15         A.   He wasn't immediate Senior of me.
      16         Q.   Sam Ghiora?
      17         A.   No, he wasn't Senior to me whatsoever.
      18         Q.   Okay. All right. Who was your Spiritual Adviser?
      19         A.   Don't remember names. It was --
      20         Q.   Who was your Auditor?
      21         A.   I don't remember the names. There was a guy from
      22   Somewhere in another state, like from New York, I'm not
      23   sure ...
      24         Q.   Did you receive auditing during that period?
      25         A.   Yeah.


      1          Q.   Are you continuing to receive auditing?
      2          A.   Right now not.
      3          Q.   Okay. What level did you receive on the spiritual
      4    side?
      5          A.   I went up to middle of Grade 0 if ...
      6          Q.   Okay. What level did you receive on the other
      7    side, on the training side?
      8          A.   On the training side I was on management training,
      9    and I did my -- it's called -- all the trainings is
      10   necessary for the second training period, was security
      11   mainly training.
      12         Q.   Who did you receive your security training from?
      13         A.   Just sitting in the course room and study the
      14   materials book together for security.
      15         Q.   Who was the person that was in charge of that
      16   implementation to you during that period of time?
      17         A.   Basically, whoever is in the course room as a
      18   course supervisor.
      19         Q.   Okay.
      20         A.   It's -- the names doesn't say anything, because
      21   it's always the friend. Like someone is there in the course
      22   room and they don't necessary immediate to what I'm study,
      23   because the study tech is completely different. They are
      24   not teaching things, they just ...
      25         Q.   All right. November of `95, which is the period


      1    of time that we're going to center in on just a minute,
      2    which is the time period that Lisa McPherson was staying at
      3    the Cabana, were you employed as a security person at that
      4    time?
      5          A.   Yeah, I was security.
      6          Q.   Who was your supervisor, who was your Senior,
      7    Baxter, Kellerhaus, Ghiora?
      8          A.    It's basically -- I remember Paul Kellerhaus being
      9    the Senior of Security, and probably Arthur Baxter the
      10   Security Chief, I'm not sure.
      13         Q.    I know how that works, it's kind of complicated.
      12         A.    Yeah, there was some changes of the time, always.
      13         Q.    Right.
      14         A.    It was long time ago.
      15         Q.    You don't live in Hacienda Gardens now?
      16         A.    No.
      17         Q.    Where do you live, in Dunedin?
      18         A.    In Dunedin, yeah.
      19         Q.    And why did you move to Dunedin?
      20         A.    Because I'm not on Staff anymore and basically in
      21   Hacienda Gardens --
      22         Q.    You're still living on Church property?
      23         A.    No.
      24         Q.    This is your own house?
      25         A.    No, I rent a house.


      1          Q.   Rent a house, apartment?
      2          A.   It's on basically a three-plex and I have one part
      3    of three-plex.
      4          Q.   Okay. Is that three-plex owned by the Church or
      5    is it owned by a private individual?
      6          A.   No, it's a private individual.
      7          Q.   So you're not on Staff anymore?
      8          A.   No.
      9          Q.   Are you employed?
      10         A.   No.
      13         Q.   You're not working now?
      12         A.   No, I can't. I'm sick.
      13         Q.   What's wrong with you?
      14         A.   I got cancer. I have a tumor about this big still
      15   behind my stomach.
      16         Q.   Okay.
      17         A.   I'm just getting a little bit better. I had huge
      18   chemotherapy done on me and I'm kind of just recovering out
      19   of it.
      20         Q.   Okay. Well, I wish you success.
      21         A.   Thanks.
      22         Q.   Let's go back to November of `95. Do you recall
      23   this period of time when Lisa McPherson was staying at the
      24   Cabana?
      25         A.   More or less.


      3.         Q.   Did you know Lisa McPherson?
      2          A.   No. I didn't heard her name whatsoever until this
      3    thing happened.
      4          Q.   Okay. Did you ever meet Lisa McPherson?
      5          A.   No, not personally.
      6          Q.   Okay. What exactly were your duties during this
      7    November period of time as a security person for the
      8    Church of Scientology?
      9          A.   Being night security, watch what -- checking and
      10   watching, make sure the base is secure for the night.
      11         Q.   Was that in the main building, Fort Harrison?
      12         A.   The, Fort Harrison building security booth.
      13         Q.   And were you aware that there was a watch going on
      14   and Lisa McPherson was in the Cabana area?
      15         A.   Yep.
      16         Q.   Okay. Were you ever involved in the security or a
      17   night watchman outside of her door?
      18         A.   No.
      19         Q.   You weren't?
      20              Were you aware that there were security people
      21   outside of her door?
      22         A.   Yeah.
      23         Q.   Okay. Can you remember who those people were?
      24         A.   I recall particular two person outside, and I
      25   think one of them was Sam Ghiora, the other one was


      1    Alfonso Barcenas.
      2          Q.   All right. Were you ever involved in any of the
      3    processes that were going on in order to help Lisa McPherson
      4    in the Church at the Cabana?
      5          A.   I don't know what you mean by "involved."
      6          Q.   Were you involved in any of the watch outside of
      7    her door? Did you --
      8          A.   It's like --
      9          Q.   Assist anybody in reference to the watch that
      10   was taking place?
      11         A.   I think when some of. the guys had to go to eat for
      12   few minutes, I was there, standing outside door.
      13         Q.   Did you ever hear --
      14         A.   Short time.
      15         Q.   -- hear or notice anything that was going on
      16   inside?
      17         A.   I'm sorry, would you repeat that?
      18         Q.   Did you hear or notice anything that was going on
      19   with Lisa any of those times?
      20         A.   No. Except one time when we get the things
      21   outside so she don't hurt herself, otherwise not.
      22         Q.   Well, tell me about that.
      23         A.   Basically, she was making a mess in the room
      24   inside, and there was a probability she may hurt herself, so
      25   we had to get out everything that was breakable, like


      1    mirrors, sconces from the wall, things like that.
      2          Q.   Who is "we"? Who was assisting you?
      3          A.   It's -- no, I was assisting them, actually. And
      4    that's the medical personnel who was there, like the girls.
      5    I don't remember exactly who was the girls, but there was
      6    like one of the medical personnel.
      7          Q.   That would be Nancy Johnson or Laura Arrunada?
      8          A.   No, no, the one who was on watch.
      9          Q.   Oh, not an officer, but a girl that was helping on
      10   the watch?
      11         A.   Yeah, the girl that was helping on the watch.
      12   Yeah, somebody was inside always to make sure that she don't
      13   hurt herself.
      14         Q.   All right.
      15         A.   And this was a girl always. So whoever was inside
      16   was taking things out, and I helping, going in getting
      17   stuff, like mirrors off of the wall, screwing off things
      18   which she, would maybe use to hurt herself. This was only
      19   time I was inside, I think.
      20         Q.   Did you see her?
      21         A.   Yeah.
      22         Q.   Was she on her feet or in the bed?
      23         A.   She was in the bed.
      24         Q.   Okay. Do you remember what date that was that you
      25   saw her?


      1          A.   This could be one of the first days, but I  don't
      2    remember exactly which one was that.
      3          Q.   So it was early in her stay?
      4          A.   Yeah, it's very early. This was the time  when she
      5    went kind of violent on the first time.
      6          Q.   All right. Did you write a report on your
      7    observations?
      8          A.   I don't recall writing report. I don't report --
      9    I don't recall writing reports.
      10         Q.   Did you ever write reports when you were a
      11   Security Guard?
      12         A.   Yeah.
      13         Q.   Okay. And what would those reports be about,
      14   things that happened during the watch?
      15         A.   Yeah, things that happens during the watch. If
      16   anything happen -- is just like I'm writing reports only if
      17   there was any special happening.
      18         Q.   Okay.
      19         A.   And I am not 100 percent sure if did I wrote
      20   report on this one, because whoever was there was supposed
      21   to write a report from first hand.
      22         Q.   So you -- you may have written a report, but
      23   you're not sure?
      24         A.   I may, but I don't sure -- I'm not sure. I think
      25   I may write two or three reports on the whole thing.


      1          Q.   On Lisa Mcpherson's stay?
      2          A.   Yeah. But I am not 100 percent sure. I was in
      3    communication with the people and I was talk to on the
      4    phone, and that's maybe sometime was enough, so ...
      5          Q.   All right. In the event that you may have written
      6    a report, who might you have given the report to?
      7          A.   Leave it on the desk so the daytime can take it up
      8    to the CS.
      9          Q.   What desk?
      10         A.   The -- the Security Office, in the Security Office
      11   had  the basket on the desk.
      12         Q.   Where is the Security Office?
      13         A.   It's in the front of the hotel in the garage.
      14         Q.   In the garage downstairs?
      15         A.   Uh-huh.
      16         Q.   Where would a report go if -- let's say you had a
      17   prowler or a trespasser and you noticed that and you had
      18   contact with that person. And you would then be required to
      19   a write a report, correct?
      20         A.   Yeah, then I would write a report to the
      21   Security Chief.
      22         Q.   Okay. And where --
      23         A.   But that's completely different case than to --
      24         Q.   Okay. I want to know how that works though. How
      25   would he get that?


      1          A.   Basically, in the security, I -- if something --
      2    bypasser or somebody goes by or -- then I would put it into
      3    the computer as a note, or I just write a note on a piece of
      4    paper for the Security Chief, this happened last night, and
      5    I leave it on the desk so they get it.
      6          Q.   Okay. Now, what happens to that, if you know?
      7    Where does that go? Does that document get destroyed, does
      8    it get put in a file, does it get put in your folder, in a
      9    security folder?
      10         A.   No.
      11         Q.   Where does it go?
      12         A.   No. That's usually just an information, it gets
      13   destroyed.
      14         Q.   Okay.
      15         A.   Whatever is on the computer, that stays in the
      16   computer.
      17         Q.   All right. Let's talk about the reports that you
      18   might have written in reference to Lisa McPherson. If you
      19   were to have written one, and you said you might have, you
      20   would have left it at the Security Office?
      21         A.   Yeah.
      22         Q.   On the table?
      23         A.   Yeah.
      24         Q.   How -- where would that report go to? Who might
      25   it have gone to?


      1          A.   The CS.
      2          Q.   And who is that?
      3          A.   What's his name? He is the Senior CS,
      4    Kartuzinski.
      5          Q.   Kartuzinski?
      6          A.   Yeah.
      7          Q.   Now, how would you make sure it got to him?
      8          A.   I had the guy comes after me to make sure it's get
      9    there.
      10         Q.   You would hand it to somebody?
      11         A.   No. I leave it on the desk and I show that --
      12   like there is a procedure when the other security guy comes
      13   in,  I kind of turn over everything so they know what's going
      14   on.  And obviously, part of it I say, here is this paper
      15   needs to go to the CS, and then they make sure it gets
      16   there.
      17         Q.   Did you ever -- I mean, would you put "CS" on top
      18   of it?
      19         A.   Yeah. Yeah, there is a routing --
      20         Q.   Okay.
      21         A.   -- on it, so it's
      22         Q.   So how would you right now, if you were to write
      23   one  -- I know you don't remember if you wrote one -- how
      24   would you title it? How would you put on top the title?
      25         A.   Like Senior CS line, my name, date, report, or


      1    whatever at the title, and noting.
      2          Q.   Okay. How would the -- that document get to
      3    Mr. Kartuzinski, if you know?
      4          A.   Yeah. Basically, there is a Com system built in
      5    the Church and the Com system is, I put into out desk and a
      6    Com Runner comes, picks it up and takes it, like sorts them
      7    like the Post Office and then goes to.
      8          Q.   How many Com Runners did you have at that period,
      9    if you know?
      10         A.   No, I don't know.
      11         Q.   Were they --
      12         A.   Yeah, it's not necessary happens that way.
      13   It's  -- this is one of the way. But we -- like very
      14   important papers, which needs to get there, Security has
      15   areas, maybe one. just guys pick it up and walk it up and
      16   give to the CS, so he gets it right away.
      17         Q.   So maybe a Security Guard would have delivered it?
      18         A.   Yeah, if it's very important.
      19         Q.   If it's important?
      20         A.   Yeah.
      21         Q.   Did you ever deliver security papers up to
      22   Mr. Kartuzinski?
      23         A.   Yeah.
      24         Q.   You did? .
      25         A.   Yeah, I did.


      1          Q.   To Mr. Kartuzinski?
      2          A.   Yeah. If I deliver papers, he is usually there.
      3          Q.   Okay.
      4          A.   And I give it to him.
      5          Q.   Were any of those papers anything to do with
      6    Lisa McPherson?
      7          A.   I don't recall. Not necessarily.
      8          Q.   What other papers would he review from the
      9    Security Office?
      10         A.   Anything important. I don't know. It's just like
      11   basically I remember walking up to those offices a lot of
      12   times and --
      13         Q.   With papers in hand?
      14         A.   I don't recall too much times. It's like two,
      15   three times, maybe four.
      16         Q.   All right. Were you -- you were aware that
      17   Mr.  Kartuzinski was Lisa McPherson's Senior Case Supervisor,
      18   correct?
      19         A.   Yeah, I know. I know that.
      20         Q.   Okay.
      21         A.   Yeah, that's ...
      22         Q.   He doesn't do that anymore, right? Or do you
      23   know?
      24         A.   Don't ask me, I have no idea.
      25         Q.   How long have you been out of the Church


      1    staff-wise?
      2          A.   Since October.
      3          Q.   Okay. Almost a year.
      4               So did you ever handle any reports that you did
      5    not write that were written by other Security Officers?
      6          A.   Yeah. The reports, whoever -- basically, if I was
      7    on the night and something happened, I ask them to write
      8    reports on it so there is something I can give in the
      9    morning to the CS.
      10         Q.   Right.
      11              Now, my question is, were any of those reports in
      12   reference to Lisa Mcpherson's status at the hotel?
      13         A.   Yeah. Yeah.
      14         Q.   They were, okay.
      15         A.   Yeah, this is what I'm talking about,
      16   Lisa McPherson.
      17         Q.   Right.
      18         A.   Yeah.
      19         Q.   So you were given reports by other security people
      20   to deliver to Alain Kartuzinski?
      21         A.   What you mean, other security people, the
      22   trainees?
      23         Q.   Well, whoever was watching Lisa Mcpherson.
      24         A.   Oh, I got it. Yeah, okay, yeah.
      25         Q.   You did?


      1          A.   Yeah, I was given papers, I was asking them to
      2    write it.
      3          Q.   Okay. How many times would you say, just
      4    guessing, I know it's been a long time, how many times would
      5    you say that has occurred?
      6          A.   I don't -- three, five times.
      7          Q.   Three to five times?
      8          A.   Yeah.
      9          Q.   That you delivered reports?
      10         A.   Oh, no, not deliver, get reports into the office.
      11         Q.   That you got reports --
      12         A.   Yeah.
      13         Q.   -- in the office?
      14         A.   Yeah. I'm not necessarily delivering these
      15   reports.  It's like basic route is this, we were the
      16   communications center for these people to the CS. So if
      17   they had anything to write up, I told them to write it up,
      18   they bring it in, I just put it on the desk again. And we
      19   turn over in the mornings, I tell the guy, see this report
      20   should go to the CS. And then after that what's happens to
      21   that paper, I don't really know.
      22         Q.   Okay. So you told several Security Officers or
      23   more than one Security Officer to write a report and give --
      24   submit it to your office?
      25         A.   I told, if something important happen, to the


      1    outside and the inside -- see, if they have anything to
      2    write up, write it up and give it to me and I make sure it's
      3    gonna go to the CS. This is things like she was eating or
      4    not.
      5          Q.   Right. That's what I'm asking. If she has a fit
      6    or if she  broke something --
      7          A.   Yeah.
      8          Q.   -- or if she was trouble or whatever.
      9          A.   Yeah.
      10         Q.   How about the caretakers' reports, where would
      11   they go?
      12         A.   I was talking all of them. I was talking about
      13   this. When you say security person, I believe you say
      14   caretakers and security too.
      15         Q.   No, I don't refer to them as the same people.
      16         A.   Oh, I am sorry. For me they were the same.
      17         Q.   All right. Let's see if we can differentiate a
      18   little bit.
      19              So you're saying that many of the reports that the
      20   caretakers and the security people would write would go into
      21   the basket at the security office down in the garage?
      22         A.   Yeah.
      23         Q.   Okay. Would the caretakers take them to the
      24   garage and put them in that basket --
      25         A.   Yeah.


      1          Q.   -- themselves?
      2          A.   No, no, they give it to me. They cannot come into
      3    the  Security Office.
      4          Q.   Okay.
      5          A.   So they would walk to the Security Office door,
      6    knock on it, I open the door, get the papers, and then I put
      7    it on the  desk. And then when the guys come in, saying,
      8    okay, here I am, I gonna replace you, then I tell them, this
      9    and this happened and here is this report, has to go to the
      10   CS.  Does the same thing for -- for the caretakers.
      11         Q.   There were a lot of girls that were involved in
      12   this, right? I mean, I can name some names, see if they
      13   ring any  bells.
      14              Sylvia DelaVaga?
      15         A.   Yeah.
      16         Q.   Rita Boykins?
      17         A.   Yeah.
      18         Q.   Barbro Wennberg?
      19         A.   Yeah.
      20         Q.   Heather Petzolo?
      21         A.-  Yeah.
      22         Q.   Susan Rike? Emma Schamehorn?
      23         A.   Susan Rike, I don't know. Emma Schamehorn I
      24   remember.
      25         Q.   Joan Stevens?


      1          A.   She wasn't really on it when I was there, but I
      2    remember.
      3          Q.   Patrizia Stralner?
      4          A.   Patrizia, yeah.
      5          Q.   Heidi Cesare?
      6          A.   Don't ring a bell.
      7          Q.   Anna Pedrazanni?
      8          A.   Don't ring a bell.
      9          Q.   Susan Green?
      10         A.   No.
      11         Q.   Valerie Demangie?
      12         A.   Yeah, Valerie, I remember her.
      13         Q.   But you're saying that those people would
      14   typically leave their report outside or knock on the
      15   Security Office door?
      16         A.   Yeah. If -- if they wrote it, they would bring it
      17   to me, because this was the fastest way to get to the CS.
      18         Q.   Were you aware of a basket that might have been in
      19   the Com route that was located outside of Lisa McPherson's
      20   room in a laundry room or --
      21              MR. McGARRY: What room was that?
      22              DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: Housekeeping.
      23         Q.   -- housekeeping room the reports might have gone
      24   to?
      25         A.   Not -- not personal, no, I don't remember.


      1          Q.   You're not aware of that?
      2          A.   No.
      3          Q.   Would reports --
      4          A.   That basically is possible, because the Church set
      5    up that way; that almost everywhere you have a Com basket
      6    like that.
      7          Q.   I understand.
      8          A.   That possible, but I particularly didn't see that
      9    Com basket myself.
      10         Q.   Do you ever remember Lacy Spencer being a
      11   Com Runner during that period of time?
      12              Did you know Lacy Spencer? She worked for
      13   Alain Kartuzinski.
      14         A.   I don't even know who is she.
      15         Q.   Okay. After Lisa died, were you asked to attend
      16   any meetings that were had in reference to her death,
      17   possibly because she had an infectious disease or a
      18   debriefing in reference to the circumstances --
      19         A.   No.
      20         Q.   -- surrounding her death?
      21         A.   No.
      22         Q.   Okay. Were you ever a part or ever involved in a
      23   Committee of Evidence or an Internal Investigation as to the
      24   circumstances surrounding Lisa McPherson's death?
      25         A.   No.


      3.         Q.   Were you ever questioned by any of your Seniors or
      2    your supervisors in reference to the circumstances
      3    surrounding Lisa's death?
      4          A.   No, not -- just while it was happening, what's
      5    happened last night. If you mean this way, afterwards, I
      6    didn't had any questioning or anything. I don't remember
      7    any.
      8          Q.   Okay.
      9          A.   Basically, I was pretty much out of the way
      10   because I was working the nights and sleeping the daytime,
      11   so -- and other things usually happen in the daytime, I
      12   wasn't around.
      13         Q.   She had some pretty sleepness nights?
      14         A.   Uh-huh.
      15         Q.   She had some pretty sleepness nights?
      16         A.   Yeah, I know that. In the beginning mostly. On
      17   the beginning she had sleepless nights, that's for sure.
      18         Q.   Okay. Were you aware that there was going to be a
      19   procedure that was going to be run on Lisa McPherson after
      20   they got her calmed down through the watch?
      21         A.   Yeah. This was the whole purpose, to get her calm
      22   down and then help her so she gets better.
      23         Q.   And what was that procedure that was going to be
      24   run?
      25         A.   That's very high. I have no idea.


      1          Q.   "Very high," as in high in knowledge level?
      2          A.   No, that's spiritual counsel. Which I am on the
      3    lower level still.
      4          Q.   Okay.
      5          A.   And this is like a different thing. This is why
      6    the Senior CS did that thing.
      7          Q.   Okay. What folder, if you know, would those files
      8    or those notes about Lisa McPherson's behavior or her
      9    conduct or her circumstances, what folder would those go to
      10   after it left the Senior CS, if you know?
      11         A.   Per the procedure, it would be the PC folder.
      12   Otherwise, it's depends on the CS, if he decides what -- I
      13   don't know. That's completely on the CS.
      14         Q.   Okay. Are you aware of how the -- those documents
      15   would arrive or get to her PC folder after the Senior CS
      16   reviewed them?
      17         A.   He puts in, I think.
      18         Q.   He does?
      19         A.   Well, he has a -- this is the -- the thing is
      20   this, the CS gets the folder and then he reads the folder,
      21   and then this is how he decides what -- what needs to be
      22   done. So all this papers goes into the folder. And I
      23   assume, he has the folder in his hand, he would put it in
      24   right away.
      25         Q.   Okay.


      1          A.   It depends. If this paper wasn't important for a
      2    case, like maybe there was something she -- she didn't eat
      3    or whatever, maybe is just wasn't important, then he would
      4    maybe destroy it, I'm not sure. Is like either way, it goes
      5    into a folder or is get destroyed. Nothing goes to the
      6    trash.
      7          Q.   Nothing gets destroyed?
      8          A.   No. - Either way, is destroyed or goes to the
      9    folder. But just simple, like nothing goes to the trash, it
      10   goes into shredder machine, so ...
      11         Q.   Did you ever see anybody put any of
      12   Lisa McPherson's file in a shredder machine?
      13         A.   No.
      14         Q.   Did you ever hear anybody discuss --
      15         A.   No.
      16         Q.   -- that that was done?
      17         A.   No way.
      18         Q.   Can you imagine that that would be done?
      19         A.   No.
      20         Q.   Not with those documents, correct?
      21         A.   No.
      22         Q.   Okay.
      23         A.   No.
      24         Q.   Are you aware that -- that there are documents
      25   that people have indicated that they have written that are


      1    not -- have not been found? Are you aware of that?
      2          A.   I -- I didn't know --
      3               MR. DARKEN: Independent of what we've talked
      4    about.
      5          A.   Yeah, I didn't know, I just heard about it.
      6          Q.   Okay. Have you ever had a conversation in
      7    reference to the whereabouts of some of those documents with
      8    an individual named Glen Steilo?
      9               Do you know who Glen Steilo is?
      10         A.   No idea. Who is that?
      11         Q.   He's a representative from your organization.
      12         A.   Basically, I am not -- not -- not very active in
      13   the last, because of my circumstances.
      14         Q.   I understand. He's new. He's new.
      15         A.   And, yeah, he's new, so I have no idea who is
      16   that.
      17         Q.   He's from the West Coast.
      18              Were you -- what time was your -- did your shift
      19   usually begin for the night shift?
      20         A.   Is always different. Sometimes 6:00 or 7:00 in
      21   the -- in the evening, or sometime I come in 10:00 p.m.,
      22   sometime 11:00 p.m.
      23         Q.   Okay.
      24         A.   Is depends on how much time was spending in the
      25   morning staying.


      1          Q.   Okay. Well, December 5th Lisa died, and she was
      2    transported from the Cabana to New Port Richey, a hospital
      3    in New Port Richey anywhere between 6:30 and eight o'clock,
      4    depending on who you talk to; presumably around 7:00, 7:30.
      5               Were you on duty that day?
      6          A.   I think l was.
      7          Q.   You were.
      8               Do you remember her being transported from the
      9    Cabana area to a van?,
      10         A.   I -- I didn't see that thing. I wasn't out there
      11   whatsoever, I was in the Security Office.
      12         Q.   Were there other Security Guards on duty that day?
      13         A.   The day shift still on till midnight, so...
      14         Q.   Who is the Security Guard that was on duty that
      15   day?
      16         A.   I'm not requiring contact person, but I think was
      17   Arthur Baxter.
      18         Q.   Would it be normal procedure for a Security Guard
      19   to help in a situation like this, where she had to be helped
      20   to a car and transported to New Port Richey?
      21         A.   Not necessarily. It's not Security job --
      22         Q.   I understand.
      23         A.   -- to transport somebody to the hospital.
      24         Q.   But you're aware that the majority of the time
      25   there was a Security Guard that was outside Lisa McPherson's


      1    door?
      2          A.   Yeah. Yeah, I know that.
      3          Q.   Did you ever see Lisa McPherson come out of that
      4    door?
      5          A.   (Witness shakes head negatively.)
      6          Q.   Ever?
      7          A.   No.
      8          Q.   Onetime?
      9          A.   No.
      10         Q.   In the whole 17 days she was there?
      11         A.   No, I didn't see her coming out.
      12         Q.   Did you ever see her have a visitor other than a
      13   member of Staff that was helping out with her feeding and
      14   her comfort?
      15         A.   No, not -- not on my duty. But I was in the
      16   night, so ...
      17         Q.   Well, I'm asking you about your shift.
      18              So you did not play a role or assist in the
      19   removal of Lisa McPherson from the Cabana area of the hotel
      20   to the van in which she took a ride to New Port Richey?
      21         A.   No.
      22         Q.   Y'all have radios, right, to keep in communication
      23   with  each other?
      24         A.   Yeah.
      25              MR. McGARRY: All right. That's all the


      1    questions I have, but the Detectives might have some
      2    questions in areas that I neglected to cover. So if
      3    you want to stand by, we can finish up. If you need a
      4    break, we'll be happy to take a break.
      5               THE WITNESS: That's okay, thanks.
      6               MR. McGARRY: Let's take a break.
      7          (Short recess is held.)
      8               EXAMINATION
      10         Q.   Okay. Attila, now, in 1995, in November, you were
      11   a -- I want to say a full-fledged Security Guard at that
      12   time, meaning that you --
      13         A.   "Full-fledged" means?
      14         Q.   -- were a regular Security Guard, that was your
      15   regular job?
      16         A.   Yeah.
      17         Q.   All right. Sam Ghiora, he was working at Lisa's
      18   door most of the time. We've talked to him.
      19              Now, he was a trainee?
      20         A.   Uh-huh.
      21         Q.   Now, was he answering to you? Would you have been
      22   his Senior, so that you --
      23         A.   In the nights, yes.
      24         Q.   Okay. Now, so you were trying to teach him how to
      25   be a Security Guard?


      1          A.   No, not at all, because he was sitting there doing
      2    watch. If he has any questions, I would answer what he
      3    want, but there was no time and that I don't have the
      4    conduct to teach him whatsoever.
      5          Q.   Okay. Now, that's where I'm going, is that, when
      6    we talked to Sam, he says that he had asked you what he was
      7    supposed to do --
      8          A.   Yeah.
      9          Q.   -- and you told him that he had to write
      10   reports
      11         A.   Yeah.
      12         Q.   -- on the specific incidents.
      13         A.   Yeah.
      14         Q.   Now, he also indicates that -- that he wrote at
      15   least three reports.
      16         A.   It's possible, I don't remember.
      17         Q.   Okay.
      18         A.   I -- I definitely asked everybody whenever I could
      19   to write reports so we have something in writing what's
      20   happening to the CS -- so the CS can evaluate the thing and
      21   do his job.
      22         Q.   All right. Now, he says he wrote three reports.
      23   And then he also indicates he gave you those reports:
      24         A.   Uh-huh.
      25         Q.   Now, we're missing those reports.


      1          A.   Okay.
      2          Q.   Do you remember any reports that Sam would have
      3    given you?
      4          A.   That's possible. I don't remember any reports
      5    particularly getting from him, but I told you already I got
      6    reports in. And this is the place where this would come, to
      7    me.
      8          Q.   Okay. So you would take them to the
      9    Security Office and they would go to the Senior CS?
      10         A.   No, they would take it to the Security Office, to
      11   me, give it to me. And then I would, what I tell you, put
      12   it on the table and then when the next watch coming, I tell
      13   them this and blah and blah happened in the night, and here
      14   is this paper, needs to go up to the CS.
      15         Q.   Okay. So Sam would not have given you these
      16   reports out at Lisa's room, he would bring these to the
      17   Security Office and then give them to you?
      18         A.   He just couldn't even do it because he wasn't
      19   inside, he was always outside and he cannot walk away from
      20   there. So whenever his watch is finish, he may comes in and
      21   writes it, and then gives it to me. If he did write it in
      22   the night, then whenever his watch is finish, he brings it
      23   into the Security Office.
      24         Q.   Okay. These reports that were written, the
      25   ones -- the copies that we have there, they're handwritten


      1    reports.
      2          A.   Yeah.
      3          Q.   Are they usually or ever written with carbon
      4    paper?
      5               Do you know what carbon paper is?
      6          A.   Yeah, I know.
      7               I don't think so.
      8          Q.   Okay. So when you did your reports, they weren't
      9    with carbon paper, they were just regular reports, and if
      10   you needed copies of them, somebody made copies on the copy
      11   machine?
      12         A.   Yeah, that's possible.
      13         Q.   Okay.
      14         A.   Yeah, not because -- because they don't even have
      15   access to carbon paper over there, so ...
      16         Q.   All right. This Security Office downstairs by the
      17   garage --
      18         A.   Yeah.
      19         Q.   -- is there always a Security Officer in it?
      20         A.   Yeah.
      21         Q.   Okay. So there's always somebody inside that
      22   Security Office?
      23         A.   Yeah.
      24         Q.   Like there's always someone at our police
      25   department's front desk.


      1          A.   Yeah.
      2          Q.   Okay. Is there a place at that Security Office --
      3    and I think you just said he would come in and write his
      4    report?
      5          A.   Uh-huh.
      6          Q.   Is there an office or something?
      7          A.   Yeah. Is like a Security Office and then a small
      8    back office. He could sit down there and write it or he
      9    could sit down outside and write it. "Outside" means in the
      10   booth itself.
      11         Q.   Okay. And there is another little office there
      12   that  -- that he could sit down and write it at, or not?
      13         A.   In the booth there's a little back part where he
      14   can sit down, there is a table, and he can write report.
      15         Q.   All right. How many chairs are at that table?
      16   Could three people sit there and write?
      17         A.   Sometimes zero, sometimes one, sometimes three.
      18   Depends how many chairs inside just that moment --
      19         Q.   All right.
      20         A.   -- or how many person right there inside at that
      21   moment.
      22         Q.   Would it be possible for three people to sit there
      23   and write reports at one time?
      24         A.   Yeah.
      25         Q.   Okay.


      1          A.   This would be very -- this would be very tight
      2    though.
      3          Q.   Very tight?
      4          A.   Very tight!.
      5          Q.   Okay. Now, you were on duty -- you've already
      6    said you were on duty on the night of December 5th, 1995,
      7    when Lisa died, but you were inside the --
      8          A.   Security Office.
      9          Q.   -- Security Office.
      10              How -- did you spend the whole night inside the
      11   Security Office? Would that be normal?
      12         A.   Yeah.
      13         Q.   Okay.  Now, on that night, later in the evening,
      14   did some people come to the Security Office to write
      15   reports?
      16         A.   Don't remember. It possible, but I have no idea.
      17         Q.   We have some people that testified that they,
      18   after coming back from the hospital and dropping Lisa off,
      19   that they were taken to the Security Office by the garage
      20   and asked to write reports.
      21         A.   That's completely possible, I -- but I don't
      22   remember.
      23         Q.   Okay. So that -- that would be very normal
      24   routine?
      25         A.   Yeah, normal routine.


      1          Q.   Okay. You're not sure whether you wrote reports
      2    or not and specifically --
      3          A.   No, I don't.
      4          Q.   -- in relation to Lisa?
      5          A.   No, I'm not.
      6          Q.   But you, as Security, normally wrote reports?
      7          A.   Yeah.
      8          Q.   Okay.
      9          A.   I mean -- I mean, see, if something important
      10   happens,  I would put it in the computer. Or if it's need to
      11   go up to the CS and it's so important, then I would write
      12   the paper and send it up to the CS.
      13              But the point is, in this case, this guys wrote
      14   reports anyway, and I ask them to write the report, and it
      15   wasn't necessary for me to just repeat what they already
      16   said in their reports, so ...
      17         Q.   Now, my question is going to be, when you wrote
      18   your reports as normal fashion --
      19         A.   Yeah.
      20         Q.   -- and I write reports, when you wrote them, did
      21   you sign them, Attila Toth, Security?
      22         A.   Yeah.
      23         Q.   So if we were to have any copies of your reports,
      24   they would say Security, Attila Toth, or how did you sign
      25   them?


      1          A.   Yeah, Attila Toth, Security Officer, or Second
      2    Night Watch Chief.
      3          Q.   Okay.
      4          A.   I can give you form how the reports written so,
      5    you know, if you want --
      6          Q.   I have no reports with Attila Toth on them, so
      7    that kind of answers the question. We don't have --
      8          A.   That should be two times there. My name should be
      9    every time two times on the report, once up on the top and
      10   once on the bottom when I sign it.
      11         Q.   Now, Arthur Baxter was the Security Chief at that
      12   time, we know that, he testified to that.
      13         A.   Uh-huh.
      14         Q.   Did he give you any instructions -- you just
      15   referred to yourself as Second Watch Chief.
      16         A.   No, Night Watch Chief.
      17         Q.   Night Watch Chief.
      18              Were you the boss then, other than Arthur Baxter?
      19         A.   No. When Arthur Baxter is, he is my boss. He was
      20   Security Chief. But when nobody around, I am the boss.
      21   This means midnight they leave, from midnight up until 6:00
      22   I am the Security Chief in charge or whatever you would say.
      23         Q.   So a lot of nights when you were working, you were
      24   the Security Chief. When I ask you --
      25         A.   Yeah, Security Chief, yeah.


      1          Q.   What I'm trying to get to is, did Arthur Baxter
      2    give you specific instructions in reference to
      3    Lisa McPherson's stay at the Cabana?
      4          A.   No.
      5          Q.   Okay. Did he give you any instructions?
      6          A.   If he -- I didn't really get instructions. See,
      7    the point is, I was pretty much in Security already, I did
      8    know -- I did most of procedures. And they -- I didn't --
      9          Q.   So you knew the procedures?
      10         A.   Yeah. I don't really need too much orders around
      11   to do my job.
      12         Q.   All right. Since you know the procedures, Lisa
      13   was there on an isolation?
      14         A.   Yeah.
      15         Q.   She was there for an isolation watch to get calmed
      16   down?
      17         A.   Yeah.
      18         Q.   I think you said that already.
      19         A.   Yeah, that's correct.
      20         Q.   And then some type of rundown later on, and I know
      21   you said it was high up.
      22              Your instructions would be, and I would like you
      23   to answer these, if Lisa wanted to leave the room?
      24         A.   I didn't get any instructions, but on my own, I
      25   did know I don't want her running around naked, screaming on


      1    the street, so I don't want her leave the room. And I --
      2    basically, this is why she had this watch, so she don't hurt
      3    herself, she don't start to run around naked, screaming.
      4          Q.   What if she was dressed and calm and said, I want
      5    to go home?
      6          A.   She could go.
      7          Q.   Okay.  So you, as the Night Security Chief, would
      8    then let her go home?
      9          A.   Yeah. But the -- basically, this is just all
      10   speculation, I have no idea what would happen. Right now, I
      11   think I would let her go home if she's completely calm and
      12   she says, okay, I am fine right now and I would like to go
      13   home; That is -- she wasn't restrained. She wasn't -- I'm
      14   sorry if I use wrong English words.
      15         Q.   No, that's a good word.
      16         A.   But she wasn't like physically stopped, except we
      17   were trying to keep her calm and make sure she's not running
      18   around naked. This -- basically, this is what happens the
      19   first place, that she --
      20         Q.   I'm just a little shocked at that, because we've
      21   had previous testimony that said the Senior Case Supervisor,
      22   Alain Kartuzinski and/or maybe Mr. Baxter or Mr. Kellerhaus
      23   may have had the authority to let her go, but nobody else,
      24   and I'm a little surprised that you would have the authority
      25   to let her go.


      1          A.   I am sure -- no, I am sure I would make a phone
      2    call first to my Senior.
      3          Q.   Okay.   You would get permission from somebody?
      4          A.   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
      5          Q.   Okay. That's why I was a little shocked, I
      6    thought you would make this decision on your own.
      7          A.   No, there are procedures. But I didn't have the
      8    authority to restrain her completely, see what I mean. I
      9    didn't have the authority to stop her physically if she
      10   completely well and, she want to go and she said. I'm sure I
      11   have to call around for someone right away. That would the
      12   Security Chief I'm calling.
      13         Q.   All right.
      14         A.   Basically -- basically, in the Church there is a
      15   communication set up that anything big happens, I always
      16   have my communications lines and I have the authority to
      17   wake up anybody who is sleeping and who is Senior to me.
      18         Q.   Like a chain of command?
      19         A.   Yeah.
      20         Q.   Keep going up the chain of command?
      21         A.   Yeah. Something bad happens, I have to call them
      22   and tell them.
      23         Q.   Okay. I understand.
      24              Who were the other Security Guards working with
      25   you? How about that night, December 5th night, do you


      1    remember?
      2          A.   Barcenas.
      3          Q.   Okay. Now, there has been previous testimony
      4    there were numerous Security Guards, there were two that
      5    came to Lisa's room the night, okay, when she was carried
      6    out to the van. And the testimony to that is that they
      7    don't know who they were, but they were Hungarian or Slavic
      8    or something.
      9          A.   See, the point is this, I don't -- I didn't even
      10   know this was a van. I believe they took her in a car. So
      11   I don't know anything about what's happened in the back.
      12         Q.   Okay. Let me correct that, the van was a car. It
      13   was a private car --
      14         A.   Yeah.
      15         Q.   -- belonging to Janice Johnson, it just happened
      16   to be one of those little mini vans, that's why I use "van."
      17         A.   Yeah. I didn't even know that, I'm sorry.
      18         Q.   Okay. Now, and who would have been the two
      19   Hungarian Security Guards there helping Paul Greenwood and
      20   Janice Johnson and Laura Arrunada taking her from the room?
      21   You were there that evening and you were the --
      22         A.   I wasn't in charge. See, you need to understand.
      23   From 6:00 to midnight, even if I am in, I am not in charge.
      24         Q.   Okay.
      25         A.   Because the other -- the day shift is still there


      1    in.
      2          Q.   Okay.
      3          A.   My in charge starts like midnight when they leave
      4    and from that moment I am alone. And this whole cycle, it
      5    was before. So -- so I was there in the night, but I don't
      6    even remember what I did. I was around checking buildings,
      7    going outside, sitting in the office watching monitors, but
      8    I wasn't involved with Lisa.
      9          Q.   Okay. Then tell me the other Hungarian
      10   Security Guards who were working with you at that time.
      11         A.   Yeah, there were -- like on my security or just
      12   for the day?
      13         Q.   Any of them, any of them that you remember, any of
      14   the names that you remember working there.
      15         A.   Yeah, remember names. One of them is
      16   Sandor Bogdan.
      17         Q.   Hold on a minute. You're going to have to help us
      18   here.
      19         A.   Okay. Sandor Bogdan -- can I have a piece of
      20   paper, I write it out so she can help it easier.                     `
      21         Q.   Sure.
      22         A.   I remember Hungarians working with me in the Fort,
      23   one of them was -- this is not necessary means that -- that
      24   they were there, I just remember they were working.
      25         Q.   Fine. The only reason I'm asking you is you're


      1    Hungarian, so you would have more of a connection to
      2    remember.
      3          A.   Yeah, those are there.
      4               MR. DARKEN: Let me just copy this.
      5          Q.   Is Sandor a common name in Hungarian?
      6          A.   It's a very common name. It's a very common name.
      7               MR. DARKEN: Do you want to read that for the
      8    record or not?
      9               MR. McGARRY: Well, I'll let him do it.
      10              THE WITNESS: Okay.
      11              MR. McGARRY: Who are those people?
      12              THE WITNESS:  So the three Hungarian
      13   Security Guard I was working with is Sandor Bogdan,
      14   S-a-n-d-o-r, B-o-g-d-a-n, and then Sandor Barna, who
      15   is -- the last name is B-a-r-n-a, Barna, and then
      16   Istvan Melmeczy, who is I-s-t-v-a-n, M-e-l-m-e-c-z-y.
      17              MR. McGARRY: Let me follow-up a question or
      18   two, Wayne.
      19              Are any of those individuals around right
      20   now? When is the last time you've seen any of those
      21   three?
      22              THE WITNESS: I didn't see anybody since
      23   October.
      24              MR. McGARRY: Okay. And in October, did you
      25   see those three guys?


      1               THE WITNESS: Yeah.
      2               MR.McGARRY:  They're still there?
      3               THE WITNESS: They were there in October.
      4    didn't see them since.
      5               MR. McGARRY: Okay. Thank you.
      6               Go ahead, Wayne.
      7               DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: All right.
      8               MR. McGARRY: Sorry for the interruption.
      9               DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: That's okay.
      11         Q.   Now, let's go back to this computer, Security
      12   computer.
      13              Were you pretty familiar with that Security
      14   computer, being in charge from 6:00 -- excuse me, from
      15   midnight till 6:00 in the morning? You were pretty
      16   familiar?
      17         A.   Yeah.
      18         Q.   Was there a normal format in the computer that you
      19   would normally type in a report?
      20         A.   Yeah.
      21         Q.   What did that look like? Was it a report form,
      22   pre-made up?
      23         A.   Yeah.
      24         Q.   And did it have a time and place?
      25         A.   Yeah, everything.


      1          Q.   And you filled in the -- did you fill in like a
      2    box?
      3          A.   I filled in blocks, like, you know, anywhere --
      4    like if you go to stop and fill in like date, the curser
      5    would jump to the next, fill it out, and jump to the next
      6    and then come to place that I type in stuff.
      7          Q.   Like a narrative you could type?
      8          A.   Yeah. Like then type it in, in the computer.
      9          Q.   The Church has said the computer was blown --
      10         A.   I remember, because I was pretty much in charge of
      11   the computer, too, because before there was nobody. And I
      12   recall times when the computer was completely blown and I
      13   had to, like --
      14         Q.   Start over?
      15         A.   -- start over the whole thing.
      16              So they had -- they had pretty bad problems
      17   before. They didn't know their computer whatsoever until I
      18   came, so they had problems. And basically, all this
      19   problems happened after, because most -- like I was there in
      20   Security for, like three, three and a half years and I had to
      21   fix computers after like the two, two and a half -- last
      22   two, one and a half year most of the time.
      23         Q.   All right. Now, I think I only have a couple of
      24   questions I just want to clear up. And I don't want to
      25   sound like I'm nit-picking, if you know what that means --


      1          A.   No, I don't.
      2          Q.   Nit-picking is getting very specific.
      3               -- but I have to get this question answered
      4    correctly.
      5          A.   Yeah.
      6          Q.   In order for you to allow Lisa McPherson, as a
      7    Security Chief between 12:00 and 6:00 in the morning, to
      8    leave the Fort Harrison Hotel during her watch, her
      9    isolation watch, you would get the permission of someone
      10   else?                                                                                             `
      11         A.   Yeah.
      12         Q.   Who would that be?
      13         A.   Security Chief.
      14         Q.   Okay.
      15         A.   But I'm sure he would call higher up to like his
      16   Senior.
      17         Q.   You think that he'd have to follow the chain of
      18   command too?
      19         A.   Yeah.
      20         Q.   Where would that stop, in your knowledge?
      21         A.   With PK, Senior INR.
      22         Q.   With Paul Kellerhaus, PK?
      23         A.   Yeah, Paul Kellerhaus. But this is all
      24   speculation, I have no idea. That's like never happened.
      25   Like in this case, I have idea what would happen, but  it's


      1    just all speculation.
      2          Q.   Are you familiar with a Case Supervisor, the
      3    difference between Case Supervisor and
      4    Senior Case Supervisor?
      5          A.   The Senior, would be the Senior of the area. He
      6    would do the harder cases, plus he would check on the other
      7    supervisors, what they do.
      8          Q.   Okay. In this case we've had -- we have the
      9    Senior Case Supervisor --
      10         A.   Yeah.
      11         Q.   -- doing the auditing for Lisa McPherson, who was
      12   public, she was a public member. Maybe you don't know that
      13   she was a public, member.
      14         A.   I don't -- she was a public, but I don't think
      15   this is correct, he wasn't doing the auditing. He wasn't,
      16   he was SC.
      17         Q.   We never got to the auditing.
      18         A.   No, but he was CS. Basically, there is a
      19   different thing. CSs and auditing is two different things.
      20         Q.   Okay. What I'm getting at, it seems to me, after
      21   listening to everyone talk, that it was kind of funny that
      22   the Senior Case Supervisor at Flag, which is a pretty
      23   prestigious position, okay, would be doing the CS work for
      24   Lisa McPherson, or would that be normal?
      25         A.   No, that would be normal. Because she was special


      1    case. If she becomes a special case, she gets the most
      2    special attention, obviously.
      3          Q.   Okay.
      4          A.   There are like -- like this is not -- not like
      5    that way, there are like three or four Senior CS5 for the
      6    three or four different area.
      7          Q.   Yeah, well, Kartuzinski would have been the only
      8    Senior CS for Flag, right? There wouldn't have been a --
      9          A.   For public?
      10         Q.   For public.
      11         A.   No, there are a Senior CS for Staff too.
      12         Q.   Okay.
      13         A.   And then there are Senior CS for public in the
      14   Fort Harrison, if I'm recall correctly, and I think there
      15   are Senior CS over in the Sand Castle, but this is just --
      16         Q.   Speculation?
      17         A.   Not really speculation, this is what I recall.
      18         Q.   Okay.
      19         A.   All right.
      20         Q.   What -- what made Lisa's case special?
      21         A.   Basically, that she went violent, I think. But
      22   this is -- I don't -- I'm not familiar with the -- the
      23   counsel side of this thing. Basically, on the Security, I
      24   can tell you the Security side, she was very special for us
      25   because she went violent. And basically, she -- she --


      1    there was a possibility she starts up again running around
      2    naked on the streets, screaming, which was the first time
      3    the case.
      4          Q.   Okay.
      5          A.   All right. So this was the Security side.
      6    Whatever is the counsel side belongs to the CS, I don't have
      7    any knowledge. I
      8          Q.   Okay. Have you been involved in any -- any other
      9    of these kind of cases, special cases like Lisa, with a
      10   watch and being isolated, isolation watch? Have you been
      11   involved with any other cases like with other people in
      12   isolation watches?
      13         A.   No, not I -- not what I recall.
      14         Q.   Okay. Do you recall when Security, and I mean
      15   Security in this case of Sam Ghiora and Alfonso Barcenas,
      16   when they were pulled off of Lisa's room?
      17         A.   No.
      18         Q.   Okay. Do you ever remember checking on them?
      19   Because I get the impression that somebody in Security was
      20   checking on them too.
      21         A.   Yeah, but I wasn't able to go out to check on
      22   them.
      23         Q.   Okay.
      24         A.   That's one. The other thing is, I was usually
      25   just there in the nights, and what's happening in the


      1    daytime is not really coming through to me.
      2          Q.   Okay.
      3               DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: I don't have
      4    anything further.
      5               George, do you have anything?
      6               DETECTIVE CARPASQUILLO: I have a couple.
      7                     EXAMINATION
      9          Q.   Were you ever trained to handle an
      10    Introspection Rundown as part of your Security training?
      11         A.   No. That's way high up too. Basically --
      12    basically, that rundown, it requires, I think, Class V
      13    Auditor, and I'm not even a Class Auditor yet. I'm not even
      14    0 Dianetics Auditor.
      15         Q.   As part of your Security training, were you ever
      16    trained to handle an isolation watch?
      17         A.   No. That is completely -- nobody knew anything
      18    about it, per my knowledge, except Senior INR, and he is the
      19    one that would tell us how it was done in his past somewhere
      20    else, if we had any.
      21         Q.   Who are we talking about? A name, please.
      22         A.   Senior INR, that's Paul Kellerhaus.
      23         Q.   You said that you were the only one working from
      24    midnight to 6:00 in the morning?
      25         A.   From midnight to like -- they come in usually


      1    9:00, ten o'clock.
      2          Q.   Okay. Who was relieving either Sam or Alfonso for
      3    lunch, for the lunch break? Was that you?
      4          A.   No, I wasn't around that time. I go home to sleep
      5    around 10:00, 11:00.
      6          Q.   One of them, either Sam came in the morning and
      7    worked ten hours, then was relieved by Alfonso, either way,
      8    there was one there at night while you were working?
      9          A.   Yeah.
      10         Q.   Okay. Who relieved him for lunch, the one that
      11   was working at night?
      12         A.   In the night?
      13         Q.   In the night.
      14         A.   In the night they don't be relieved, they stay
      15   there.
      16         Q.   For the whole watch?
      17         A.   Yeah.
      18         Q.   So they were never relieved for the watch?
      19         A.   No. In the night there is no way. I'm sitting in
      20   Security Office alone, I can't go and relieve them and they
      21   are out there.
      22         Q.   You said you relieved one of them at one time.
      23         A.   This was in the daytime, like after somebody came
      24   in. Like Security Chief and the other guards in already,
      25   and this guy needs to get breakfast, you know, if it's like


      1    10:00 a.m. or -- or 11:00 a.m. or something, and I go there,
      2    relieve them like for 15, 20 minutes. He goes, gets a
      3    breakfast, very fast, eat something in the Cantina and comes
      4    back.
      5          Q.   So that time you relieved, I think you said it was
      6    Sam --
      7          A.   Yeah, I think Sam I relieved.
      8          Q.   -- that was during the day?
      9          A.   It's possible that I relieve Sam once.
      10         Q.   You said you did.
      11         A.   Yeah.
      12         Q.   That's when she broke the stuff and you went in
      13   and helped remove some of the things that could be broken?
      14         A.   Oh, no. This was a completely different case.
      15   That was not relief, no.
      16              When -- when she started to do the mess inside her
      17   room, then someone was still outside. I just went into the
      18   back, helping taking things out. But this was in the
      19   daytime and there were already other Security Guards in --
      20   in the Security booth, otherwise I can't leave the booth
      21   myself.
      22         Q.   So you -- somebody called you and told you to come
      23   to the back?
      24         A.   I don't know. I think I just went back to check
      25   what's going on and then we find out we need to take the


      1    stuff out and I help.
      2          Q.   Okay. You also said earlier that you told Sam and
      3    Alfonso that if anything was broken or anything happened, to
      4    write a report?
      5          A.   Yeah.
      6          Q.   That was part of their job?
      7          A.   Yes.
      8          Q.   How come -- then following those instructions,
      9    because something was broken and something special happened,
      10   you should have written a report?
      11         A.   No. Because this is the thing, he already wrote
      12   the report. Why should I write it up a second time, he
      13   already wrote something.
      14         Q.   I understand.
      15              There were caretakers in the room with her all the
      16   time?
      17         A.   Uh-huh.
      18         Q.   But you told Sam and Alfonso, if anything was
      19   broken -- something was broken, to write a report regardless
      20   whether the caretakers wrote a report?
      21         A.   This is the thing --
      22              MR. DARKEN: He testified about Sam, telling
      23   Sam to write a report, I don't think he talked about
      24   telling Alfonso to write a report.
      25              DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: No, he said --


      1          A.   I tell everybody write a report. The point was
      2    this, I was in the Security booth, I didn't see anything.
      3    Now, this guy, if somebody inside sees the something, maybe
      4    the outside ones see something else. From the two reports I
      5    get the whole picture. But if I got -- the whole picture
      6    already is there, I don't need write another report based on
      7    their reports. Makes no sense. This would be a secondhand
      8    thing.
      9          Q.   I'm just trying to clear this up.
      10              You said the orders were, if something was
      11   broken --
      12         A.   Yeah.
      13         Q.   -- something special happens, you write a report.
      14         A.   Yeah.
      15         Q.   Well, you were there when those two things
      16   occurred, something was broken and something special was
      17   going on.
      18         A.   No, when I was -- no, no, that's not -- when I was
      19   there, it wasn't broke anything, we just take out everything
      20   to make sure she won't do that. Wasn't because she broke
      21   something. How you call this in English, precaution?
      22         Q.   Precautionary.
      23         A.   Yeah, precautionary. So she won't hurt herself on
      24   the mirror, we take out the mirror. There was nothing
      25   broken.


      1          Q.   Somebody ordered you to do that, to go down and
      2    remove all that stuff?
      3          A.   Yeah. That was also, I think, Senior INR,
      4    Paul Kellerhaus. Basically, he was the one who knew the
      5    most and -- and he was the most experienced guy around.
      6          Q.   Okay. I want to talk about your Security office
      7    where you sit in the garage. You said you have monitors
      8    there?
      9          A.   Yeah.
      10         Q.   Okay. From your -- are those monitors recorded?
      11         A.   No.
      12         Q.   Do you have videotapes running?
      13         A.   I don't know how they do it now. At the time they
      14   were not.
      15         Q.   Okay. So it was just a monitor, but there was no
      16   video running?
      17         A.   No.
      18         Q.   Okay. From your position in that monitor room,
      19   could you see the Cabanas?
      20         A.   I can see the walkway.
      21         Q.   Okay. Could you see Lisa's room from your
      22   monitors?
      23         A.   I can't see the door.
      24         Q.   You can see the door?
      25         A.   I cannot see the door.


      1          Q.   Okay. Can you --
      2          A.   It's -- it's like basically the -- can I have the
      3    piece of paper again with a pen?
      4                This place looks like, this is the Cabana, here
      5    are the doors. Here is one camera in this corner watching
      6    this way, and here is this camera Around this corner
      7    watching this way. So basically, whatever happens with the
      8    door, I cannot see, and I can't see this area where the
      9    Guard was sitting. Basically, from this camera I can see
      10   this area, but this is so far away, basically, you can't see
      11   anything in the night.
      12         Q.   This is the street out here?
      13         A.   Yeah, this is the street. We have big gate here,
      14   big gate here.
      15         Q.   This is a high fence wall?
      16         A.   Not very high. Not very high. If I stand by,
      17   it's about this high.
      18         Q.   Six feet? Five feet?
      19         A.   Six feet maybe.
      20         Q.   You said the night that Lisa was taken to the
      21   hospital you were in your Security room?
      22         A.   No, I didn't say that. I said I was partly there
      23   and I was partly outside. And if I am in the booth, not
      24   necessary means I'm watching the monitors, because the
      25   Security Chief there. Like, see, if the Security Chief is,


      1    in, usually he sits. and watch the monitors and we are like
      2    running around, going check the buildings and maybe staying
      3    inside, because picking up the phone, whatever.
      4          Q.   Okay. Who would have been in the booth between,
      5    let's say, eight o'clock and -- let's go 7:00 to 9:00
      6    o'clock, who would have been there?
      7          A.   Arthur Baxter would be there anyway, I think.
      8          Q.   Arthur Baxter would have been there.
      9               And would he have been monitoring the monitors?
      10         A.   Yeah, he would.
      11         Q.   Okay. And that's part of his responsibility, sit
      12   in that booth and monitor the monitors?
      13         A.   Yeah.
      14         Q.   So --
      15         A.   If he may have something to handle, then he jumps
      16   out from the chair, I sit in and --
      17         Q.   But there's always somebody watching the monitors?
      18         A.   Somebody always watching the monitors.
      19         Q.   All right. So somebody sitting there should
      20   have seen Lisa come out into this range of vision, into the
      21   van and go to the hospital, somebody should have seen that?
      22         A.   It's possible. But other time -- the perfect
      23   information is this: The cameras were very -- how you say?
      24   Show everything is very small so he can see bigger area.
      25   And that was in the night. And in the night, those cameras,


      1    you can't always most -- you cannot see almost anything,
      2    just movements. This is why it's there, so I can see if
      3    somebody jumps in, there is like a huge movement and a big
      4    difference in the chord, but I wouldn't recognize who is
      5    there.
      6          Q.   Okay. But you would have seen at least four
      7    people which is a lot -- good size mass --
      8          A.   Yeah. Yeah.
      9          Q.   -- moving --
      10         A.   Yeah.
      11         Q.   -- across here?
      12         A.   Yeah.
      13         Q.   And somebody should have seen that?
      14         A.   Yeah.
      15         Q.   Somebody should have seen Lisa walk out of the
      16   room or be helped out of the room or carried out of the
      17   room --
      18         A.   Yeah.
      19         Q.   -- to the van --
      20         A.   Yeah.
      21         Q.   -- that was parked in the street?
      22              Did you see that?
      23         A.   No, I don't recall whatsoever.
      24         Q.   And the only other person that would have been in
      25   the booth at the time was Arthur Baxter?


      1          A.   Arthur Baxter would be there and -- and whoever
      2    works in the daytime.
      3          Q.   Do you know who that would have been?
      4               No. I am sorry. This was so far back, and there
      5    was so many changings back and forth between the Security
      6    person, I don't know who was working on that day. I know I
      7    was and I remember Arthur Baxter being there.
      8          Q.   Okay. And to best of your recollection, you don't
      9    believe that those monitors were recorded at the time?
      10         A.   No. I don't even think they record it now, no,
      11   not those two.
      12         Q.   Well, I -- I do know they record, and it might
      13   have been recorded because we got a picture from a bomb
      14   threat by someone riding a bicycle.
      15         A.   From the back?
      16         Q.   From your security cameras at the Fort Harrison.
      17         A.   From the back?
      18              DETECTIVE SERGEANT ANDREWS: We don't know
      19   where it's from.
      20         A.   No, if there was recording, there was only one
      21   recording when I was there, and that is the front door.
      22   Which is, if this is the Cabanas, all right, and this is --
      23   this is the Osceola Street, this is the Fort Harrison
      24   Street, and the Fort Harrison main door.
      25         Q.   That's all that's recorded?


      1          A.   That's where the doorways is.
      2          Q.   The  back is never recorded, to your knowledge?
      3          A.   Per my knowledge, not.
      4               See, I wasn't there since October, so I don't know
      5    what they record now, if they get new equipment. Other time
      6    when I was working there, I had monitors and then I had one,
      7    I think one video player. And I don't remember when that
      8    was put in. And I recall recording the front door. I don't
      9    even know -- it was so early at the time that the Security
      10   was not as right now and we don't have that much equipment.
      11         Q.   You guys have been there since 1974.
      12         A.   Well, they were, but -- but that's not means that
      13   I was there.
      14         Q.   I'm saying Security has been there since 1974.
      15   And they have security cameras up. You would think that
      16   from `74 to `95 they would have probably been recording by
      17   then.
      18         A.   Yeah. Yeah, see, the point was that in the center
      19   cell they recorded, they have to be there always, in the
      20   Fort Harrison Hotel. There was a time earlier they recorded
      21   and then the video recorder went -- broke. And then for
      22   years there was no video recorder. And then when
      23   Paul Kellerhaus came, he started pushing these issues very
      24   hard. And after that we got the video recorder and started
      25   to recording the front door. But this was only one machine


      1    and that's it. And then I don't even think they would put
      2    anything on the back recording.
      3          Q.   Okay. I just wanted to go on record, there might
      4    be a possibility somewhere that there's a recording of Lisa
      5    walking out that back door --
      6          A.   No.
      7          Q.   -- into the van?
      8          A.   I'm sure not.
      9          Q.   I want to put on record that somebody from
      10   Security would have seen her walk out or a group of people
      11   walk out.
      12         A.   That's possible.
      13         Q.   But we don't know who that somebody is yet?
      14         A.   No. But the thing is this, the main intention of
      15   cameras was on the front door, because usually the big
      16   trouble we got is from the front door.
      17         Q.   Okay. I've got one more question for you: You
      18   say you did not have the authority to stop Lisa if she
      19   wanted to leave. If she came out dressed and she was
      20   looking okay, says I feel fine, I'm going to leave, you did
      21   not have the authority to stop her, correct?
      22         A.   No.
      23         Q.   She could have just walked right down the
      24   street -- walked out the door here, walked down the street
      25   and walked on home, you could not stop her?


      1          A.   No.
      2               MR. DARKEN: What he said was that he would
      3    call the Security Chief.
      4          A.   Yeah, this is what I said.
      5          Q.   Well, you also said, and I think the words were
      6    you did not have the authority, so if she insisted -- let me
      7    ask you this: If she insisted on leaving now, I feel great,
      8    I'm okay, I'm leaving now --
      9          A.   No, I don't have the authority to stop her.
      10         Q.   So she can walk out the door?
      11         A.   Per my knowledge.
      12         Q.   Okay.
      13         A.   Now, maybe -- maybe this would violate Security
      14   procedures, but I don't recall any Security procedures about
      15   this.
      16         Q.   Did Sam Ghiora have the authority to stop her?
      17         A.   No. Not what I know.
      18         Q.   Okay.
      19         A.   Basically, he was there to make sure she's not --
      20   not beating, up the person who is inside.
      21         Q.   So if she's trying to walk out the room, to leave
      22   the room, does Sam have the authority to stop her from
      23   leaving the room?
      24         A.   I don't -- I don't think he would, but I am not
      25   sure. This is -- this is -- this wasn't a very -- how I


      1    say? How can I can put this? Nobody really knew what to
      2    do, because we never had a case like that before. And
      3    basically, I used all my knowledge of Security dealing with
      4    the cycle and what -- this is all speculation. I don't
      5    know, it never happened. So basically, I'm sure I would
      6    call somebody.
      7          Q.   Well, it's interesting that, you know, you had
      8    three years, you started in '93 in security, July, and this
      9    occurred in November of '95, so little bit over two years
      10   and you were not trained to handle some of the things that
      11   we have mentioned here.
      12         A.   Yeah, because never happened.
      13         Q.   You never had one of these before?
      14         A.   No, because it's never happened before.
      15         Q.   So this was really a special case?
      16         A.   That was a very special case. For me anyway. And
      17   also the point is that in this time period while you are
      18   talking, I wasn't in Security always, I was out for a month
      19   in -- and to doing something completely different.
      20              DETECTIVE CARRASQUILLO: Well, I want to
      21   thank you for answering our questions. I don't have
      22   any more questions.
      23              MR. McGARRY: All right. That will do it.
      25        CONCLUDED AT 10:30 A.M.)

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320

      1                        CERTIFICATE OF OATH
      3     STATE OF FLORIDA   )
            COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
      5               I, the undersigned authority, certify that the
            aforesaid deponent personally appeared before me and was
      6     duly sworn.

                      WITNESS my hand and official seal this __21st__ day
            of ___August___, 1997.

      10                        RUTM M. MARTIN, R.M.R.
                                Notary Public - State of Florida
      11                        Commission No. CC 643284
                                Commission Expires: 4/29/2001

            STATE OF FLORIDA   )
      14    COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
                      I, RUTH M. MARTIN, Registered Merit Reporter,
      16   certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically
           report the sworn statement of the aforenamed deponent, and
      17   that the transcript is a true and complete record of my
           stenographic notes.
                      I further certify that I am not a relative,
      19     employee, attorney, or cotinsel of any of the parties, nor am
             I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
      20     counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
             interested in the action.
      22              DATED this __21st__ day of ___August__, 1997.

      25                               RUTH M. MARTIN, RNR

                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS - (813) 821-3320