Sworn Statement of Judy Fontana

Date:September 17, 1997

      5                      STATE ATTORNEY INVESTIGATION
      6                            RE: LISA MCPHERSON
      11            SWORN STATEMENT:   JUDY FONTANA.
                    TAKEN BY:          MARK NCGARRY.
      14            DATE:              September 17, 1997.
                    BEFORE:            Kristine N. Blake, RNR,
      16                               Notary Public,
                                       State of Florida at large.
      18            PLACE:             Criminal Justice Center,
                                       State Attorney's Office,.
      19                               Clearwater, Florida.
      24                      KANABAY COURT REPORTERS
                      TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT - (813) 224-9500
      25             ST. PETERSBURG, CLEARWATER - (813) 821-3320


      2            APPEARANCES:      MARK MCGARRY, ESQUIRE,
                                     Assistant State Attorney,
      3                              Attorney for State of Florida.

      4                              JOHN F. LAURO, ESQUIRE,
                                     101 E. Kennedy Boulevard,
      5                              Suite 3950,
                                     Tampa, FL 33601
      6                              Attorney for Judy Fontana.
                               SPECIAL AGENT LEE STROPE.


      1                         JUDY FONTANA,
      2    the witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was
      3    examined and was deposed as follows:
      4                         EXAMINATION
      5    BY MR. MCGARRY:
      6          Q.   All right. My name's Mark McGarry. You've
      7    met everybody else in the room. We're conducting an
      8    investigation in reference to Lisa McPherson's death.
      9    Your name has been provided to us as a person that
      10   might have some information in relationship to that.
      11         A.   Uh-huh.
      12         Q.   Would you put your name on the record,
      13   please.
      14         A.   My name is Judy Fontana.
      15         Q.   All right. And your address?
      16         A.   It's 551 Saturn Avenue in Clearwater.
      17         Q.   Is that Hacienda Gardens?
      18         A.   That's Hacienda Gardens, correct.
      19              MR. MCGARRY: Your lawyer might like to
      20   put something on the record.
      21              MR. LAURO: Thank you, Mark. My name is
      22   John Lauro, and I represent Ms. Fontana, and she's
      23   testifying today pursuant to a subpoena that's been
      24   issued by the Pinellas County State Attorney's Office,
      25   and she's testifying pursuant to that subpoena and


      1    under the protections thereof.
      2    BY MR. MCGARRY:
      3          Q.   Okay. Some background information. Your
      4    birth date?
      5          A.   It's X, 1955.
      6          Q.   All right. And how long have you lived in
      7    Clearwater?
      8          A.   I've lived in Clearwater off and on for 17
      9    years.
      10         Q.   Where'd you live prior to that?
      11         A.   Before that I was in Arizona, in X.
      12         Q.   All right. And when did you join the church?
      13         A.   Well, I first took services with the church
      14   in 1973, June 1973.
      15         Q.   And where was that?
      16         A.   That was in an area -- in Peekskill, New
      17   York. That's in Westchester County.
      18         Q.   Uh-huh. And when did you move from New York?
      19         A.   1973.
      20         Q.   And why, for the church or for other reasons?
      21         A.   No, just for personal reasons.
      22         Q.   And where'd you move from New York to?
      23         A.   Well, I went to X, Arizona where I had
      24   a friend staying out there.
      25         Q.   All right. And did you join the church out


      1    there, or is there a church?
      2          A.   There isn't a church out there.
      3          Q.   Okay. When was your next contact with the
      4    Church of Scientology?
      5          A.   The next contact was approximately -- it was
      6    either 1977 or '78.
      7          Q.   Where was that?
      8          A.   That was in X.
      9          Q.   All right. And that's where you moved from
      10   Prescott?
      11         A.   That's -- that's right.
      12         Q.   And was the purpose of that move part of --
      13   for church reasons or other personal reasons?
      14         A.   I was attending school at X State.
      15         Q.   All right. And reinitiated your contact with
      16   the church once you were there?
      17         A.   That's correct.
      18         Q.   All right. Now, was that as a parishioner or
      19   was that as a staff member?
      20         A.   Initially it was as a parishioner.
      21         Q.   Okay. When did you become staff?
      22         A.   It was about, I'd say, within -- it was
      23   either three or four weeks.
      24         Q.   All right. And what did you do for them out
      25   there?


      1          A.   I was in an area that's called the
      2    dissemination area, and I was registering people for
      3    religious services.
      4          Q.   All right. And how long did you do that?
      5          A.   Until January '80.
      6          Q.   And why did you stop doing that?
      7          A.   Well, I stopped because my husband had moved
      8    to Clearwater.
      9          Q.   And that is who?
      10         A.   Paul Johnson. Sorry, my ex-husband --
      11         Q.   Okay.
      12         A.   -- my husband at that time. He had moved to
      13   Clearwater and had joined Staff here, and I had stayed
      14   over there a little bit after he had left to wrap some
      15   things up and then joined him in Clearwater.
      16         Q.   All right. And when you came to Clearwater,
      17   was the sole move to Clearwater because of the church
      18   or because of other reasons?
      19         A.   Because of my husband.
      20         Q.   Well -- your husband?
      21         A.   Right.
      22         Q.   I see. That he was with -- he was totally
      23   connected with the church at the time?
      24         A.   He was a staff member.
      25         Q.   And still is?


      1          A.   Yes, he still lives in Clearwater.
      2          Q.   And his name is Paul Johnson?
      3          A.   Yes.
      4          Q.   Like the lawyer but not the lawyer?
      5          A.   That's correct.
      6          Q.   All right. Did you become a member of staff
      7    when you arrived in Clearwater?
      8          A.   Well, not on an immediate basis. Originally
      9    when I came here I had some pretty substantial debts
      10   that I had from when I was in college, and I used the
      11   opportunity to get my debts paid off, and that took me
      12   the better part of a year.
      13         Q.   How did you pay your debts off?
      14         A.   Well, there was a --
      15         Q.   I know you're not gonna do it through the
      16   church at 50 bucks a week.
      17         A.   No, that's true. I got various jobs.
      18   There's various jobs that were in downtown Clearwater,
      19   and I paid them off that way.
      20         Q.   Okay. So when did you join staff again in
      21   Clearwater?
      22         A.   Well, I officially joined staff August of
      23   '81.
      24         Q.   In what position?
      25         A.   That was in a group that's called the World


      1    Institute of Scientology Enterprises. The name is
      2    actually called WISE. WISE at that time was in
      3    downtown Clearwater on Fort Harrison, and I joined
      4    staff there and did work with them in their treasury
      5    department doing collections.
      6          Q.   What -- what exactly does that mean,
      7    collections?
      8          A.   Well, they -- they're a membership
      9    organization, and there are different members that
      10   would pay dues on occasion, and I would help collect
      11   the dues and invoice them in and that sort of thing, do
      12   the banking.
      13         Q.   All right. What position was your husband
      14   employed with the church at the time?
      15         A.   My husband -- let's see -- at that time was
      16   in public relations.
      17         Q.   All right. When did your -- if it's not too
      18   personal, when did your marriage go bad with Paul?
      19   Somewhere in that period of time, because I know you're
      20   married to --
      21         A.   Right.
      22         Q.   -- Humberto, right?
      23         A.   Well, actually, probably somewhere around
      24   that time, yeah.
      25         Q.   Okay. When did you go into the OSA office?


      1          A.   September 10th, 1984.
      2          Q.   All right. And been there ever since?
      3          A.   That's right.
      4          Q.   All right.
      5          A.   Well--
      6               MR. LAURO: Not currently. She's not
      7    currently there.
      8               THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm not currently
      9    there, and I've also had short breaks in between that
      10   time period where I have done other activities.
      11              BY MR. MCGARRY:
      12         Q.   Okay. Where are you now?
      13         A.   Well, right now I'm actually not part of the
      14   organization per se. I'm in a program which is
      15   involved with intensive study and intensive renovations
      16   and that's what I'm doing currently.
      17         Q.   Renovations as in personal renovations or
      18   renovations --
      19         A.   No, no, no. Physical, physical properties.
      20         Q.   Of the church?
      21         A.   That's right.
      22         Q.   When did that occur?
      23         A.   Well, that occurred in Clearwater just as of
      24   about seven days ago.
      25         Q.   Okay.


      1          A.   Before that I was in Los Angeles.
      2          Q.   And when did you go to Los Angeles?
      3          A.   In the end of January '97.
      4          Q.   Okay. Why did you go to Los Angeles in -- in
      5    January?
      6          A.   Well, at the time I was sent out there to do
      7    a correction program, counseling, training, that sort
      8    of thing.
      9          Q.   All right. Let's talk about your spiritual
      10   studies, if we could, for a second.
      11         A.   Sure.
      12         Q.   What's your current status? Is it clear?
      13         A.   Clear.
      14         Q.   Okay.
      15         A.   That's correct.
      16         Q.   Any levels above that? Are you --
      17         A.   No.
      18         Q.   Okay. And when did you obtain that status?
      19         A.   '79.
      20         Q.   Okay. All right. During the period of time
      21   of November of '95 you were in the OSA office, correct?
      22         A.   That's correct.
      23         Q.   All right. And your position in that
      24   particular office was what?
      25         A.   Legal officer.


      1          Q.   All right. And you were surrounded by
      2    several other people within that office, correct?
      3          A.   That's right.
      4          Q.   Can you name those people?
      5          A.   Sure. There's my husband.
      6          Q.   Uh-huh.
      7          A.   Brian Anderson, Annie Mora, Alice Herben,
      8    Mary Story.
      9               MR. LAURO: Okay. Just go a little
      10   slower.
      11              THE WITNESS: Sure. Mary Story.
      12              MR. LAURO: Okay.
      13              THE WITNESS: Alice Herben, H-e-r-b-e-n.
      14              BY MR.MCGARRY:
      15         Q.   All right
      16         A.   That's --
      17         Q.   If you missed one, that's okay. Can you
      18   describe your duties at that particular time as a legal
      19   officer?
      20         A.   Okay. Well, my duties basically were I was
      21   in charge of all litigation for the church in
      22   Clearwater. At that time we had a number of different
      23   active matters. Also --
      24         Q.   What do you mean in charge of litigation?
      25   What does that mean?


      1          A.   Well, I would directly work with all of our
      2    church counsel in running litigation we had including
      3    attending, you know -- and on behalf of the church for
      4    anything as well.
      5          Q.   All right. Let's talk about your legal
      6    background. What legal background do you have?
      7          A.   None.
      8          Q.   All right. How were you selected for that
      9    particular position? I mean, was that -- was there
      10   a --
      11         A.   Any qualifications you mean?
      12         Q.   Yeah.
      13         A.   I guess because somebody thought that I was
      14   probably bright.
      15         Q.   Okay. Well, that's a good answer.
      16         A.   I don't really know.
      17         Q.   But no legal -- formal legal training?
      18         A.   No, no, no.
      19         Q.   Law school or studies?
      20         A.   No. I was an art major in college, so that
      21   had nothing to do with it.
      22              MR. LAURO: Although I'm not sure it's
      23   clear that -- on the record that you started out as a
      24   legal officer. I think you began --
      25              THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't actually


      1    begin as the legal officer.
      2               MR. LAURO: You may want to explain
      3    that.
      4               BY MR. MCGARRY:
      5          Q.   When did you obtain that title? If you were
      6    an OSA and had other positions in OSA, why don't you
      7    break that down for me?
      8          A.   Okay.
      9          Q.   Because I know you were in there for almost
      10   ten -- quite a number of years.
      11         A.   Originally when I came in, I came in to do --
      12   well, it's actually very similar, it just wasn't called
      13   legal officer. It was called legal preparations, and I
      14   would work specifically on litigation and prepare
      15   materials for the attorneys for the different lawsuits
      16   that we had going on at the time.
      17         Q.   All right. So during that period of time and
      18   as well as this period of time where you were a legal
      19   liaison officer, I guess is what you are, if a lawyer
      20   called OSA, they'd talk to you and get whatever
      21   information they needed?
      22         A.   That's right, unless it was a specific area
      23   like immigration.
      24         Q.   Okay.
      25         A.   Immigration had somebody else.


      1          Q.   All right. But that's what your title was in
      2    November of '95? As a matter of fact -- when did you
      3    get that position so I can establish that?
      4          A.   That was around -- it was either '88 or '89.
      5          Q.   All right. So you had it for a full five or
      6    six years prior to Lisa's spin, should we say?
      7          A.   That's true. With -- other than there was a
      8    very short break for about three months that was in, I
      9    think, 1992 or three, something like that.
      10         Q.   Okay. Did you ever know Lisa McPherson
      11   personally?
      12         A.   No.
      13         Q.   Never met her?
      14         A.   No.
      15         Q.   When was the first time you heard her name
      16   referenced?
      17         A.   It was sometime at the time where she had her
      18   accident, so it was November of '95.
      19         Q.   Okay. Would that have been the time that
      20   she -- somebody called from Morton Plant to OSA and
      21   indicated you had a parishioner that was having some
      22   problems?
      23         A.   Well, I heard from somebody else in the
      24   office, and I don't specifically remember if it was
      25   Humberto or Brian or Annie or someone. That's how I


      1    heard.
      2          Q.   Okay. Did you take action on that? Were
      3    you -- because of that information that you received
      4    from somebody in your office, did you, because of your
      5    duties there, take a course of action?
      6          A.   No, not myself.
      7          Q.   Okay. Did somebody else in the office?
      8          A.   I know that Humberto went out to Morton
      9    Plant.
      10         Q.   Okay. Anybody else from your office go
      11   there?
      12         A.   Not that I recall.
      13         Q.   Do you know who it was that called OSA from
      14   Morton Plant?
      15         A.   No.
      16         Q.   No?
      17              Did you have a conversation with anybody from
      18   Morton Plant?
      19         A.   No.
      20         Q.   Okay. When was the next thing you heard
      21   about Lisa in reference to the Morton Plant situation?
      22   Did you gain any other data after she was released or
      23   during her stay?
      24         A.   Well, after -- after her stay in the Fort
      25   Harrison, I think it was about -- sometime around


      1    Thanksgiving or somewhere thereabouts, it was about
      2    halfway into her stay --
      3          Q.   Uh-huh.
      4          A.   -- I had -- Paul Kellerhals had given me some
      5    information about her stay and the fact that she was
      6    staying there and had mentioned that she wasn't
      7    sleeping and eating well.
      8          Q.   All right. Prior to that, though, you had no
      9    involvement in the decision of somebody that Lisa was
      10   going to be offered a room at the Fort Harrison in
      11   order to recuperate?
      12         A.   No.
      13         Q.   You weren't involved in that decision?
      14         A.   No, I wasn't.
      15         Q.   Who was?
      16         A.   I actually don't know.
      17         Q.   All right. So the next thing you knew about
      18   the Lisa McPherson situation was that Kellerhals was
      19   briefing you on --
      20         A.   That's right.
      21         Q.   -- apparently an episode or two that she had
      22   had?
      23         A.   That's right.
      24         Q.   Okay.
      25         A.   Well, also, I should say that he must have


      1    told me that she was staying there after she had
      2    arrived.
      3          Q.   So you knew she was there?
      4          A.   So I knew she was there --
      5          Q.   Okay.
      6          A.   -- at some point.
      7          Q.   Were you told why she was there and what was
      8    the purpose of her stay?
      9          A.   I don't -- I don't recall any specific
      10   conversations about it --
      11         Q.   Well --
      12         A.   -- but I must have obviously been told that
      13   she was staying there.
      14         Q.   Being the legal officer -- right. You would
      15   be the circle of information being the legal officer,
      16   correct? Obviously, there's a situation that requires
      17   your being in the loop? I mean, there's a potential
      18   legal problem developing, correct?
      19         A.   Not at that time.
      20         Q.   Well, she crashed her car, right?
      21         A.   Uh-huh.
      22         Q.   And she was having apparently a psychotic
      23   break and she was staying at the hotel, so you were
      24   being apprised of those situations, correct?
      25         A.   I was apprised it occurred when it occurred,


      1    but it wouldn't be, strictly speaking, a legal matter.
      2    It wasn't something that was going to jeopardize the
      3    church. At least at that time there was no
      4    understanding that that was going to occur.
      5          Q.   Okay. Were you aware that there was a round
      6    the clock watch being implemented for Lisa?
      7          A.   At some point, yes. I think PK had told me
      8    or Paul Kellerhals.
      9          Q.   And were you aware that there was a document
      10   routing of her daily. conduct that was being routed to
      11   Alain Kartuzinski?
      12         A.   No.
      13         Q.   You weren't aware of that?
      14         A.   No.
      15         Q.   Do you know who Alain Kartuzinski is?
      16         A.   Uh-huh.
      17         Q.   When was the next thing that you can recall
      18   that happened in reference to Lisa McPherson's stay at
      19   the hotel?
      20         A.   Well, there's an incident that I was -- or
      21   this conversation I was telling you about that was, I
      22   think, around two weeks after she had arrived with Paul
      23   Kellerhals in which he had mentioned something like,
      24   you know, she's not sleeping very well or not eating
      25   very well.


      1          Q.   Right. Did you act upon that?
      2          A.   Well, I told him to act upon it.
      3          Q.   And what instructions were those?
      4          A.   To make sure that she got some treatment so
      5    that she was going to eat and, you know, get the proper
      6    amount of sleep.
      7          Q.   And any specific instructions, or were you
      8    instructing him just -- I mean, he's a security
      9    officer. He's not in charge of health care, is he?
      10         A.   No, not generally, but he seemed to be in the
      11   loop of what was occurring with the situation more than
      12   anybody else that I was dealing with.
      13         Q.   All right. So who was entrusted with her
      14   care at that point? Was it you or Alain Kartuzinski or
      15   one of the people at MLO? I mean, it sounds like you
      16   were making a decision for her care at that point. Was
      17   there other people making decisions as well?
      18         A.   I don't know actually. Paul Kellerhals
      19   was -- you know, seemed to be in tune with the
      20   situation.
      21         Q.   Well, who was in -- were you aware that she
      22   was there to be -- regain her -- her sanity to some
      23   degree and calm down for a course -- an introspective
      24   run-down course? Were you aware of that?
      25         A.   No.


      1          Q.   Did you ever become aware of that?
      2          A.   No.
      3          Q.   You're not aware of that to this day?
      4          A.   No. That wasn't what my understanding was
      5    for the reason that she came.
      6          Q.   What is your understanding for the reason she
      7    came?
      8          A.   My understanding was that she came so that
      9    she had a place to stay, because that's what she
      10   wanted. That was my understanding.
      11         Q.   Okay. But you were never -- and to this
      12   moment right now you have never been told by anybody in
      13   the organization that she was there to become -- for a
      14   course that would ultimately come -- I'm not saying
      15   that the period of time that she was in that hotel that
      16   she was getting this course. I'm not suggesting that.
      17   I'm suggesting that she was there to regain her sanity
      18   in order to participate in that course.
      19         A.   No.
      20         Q.   You weren't -- you aren't aware of that?
      21         A.   No.
      22         Q.   Okay.
      23         A.   Not at all.
      24         Q.   Who was the person from the MLO office that
      25   was in charge of Lisa McPherson's health care?


      1          A.   I wasn't sure -- I didn't know actually that
      2    there was anybody specifically in charge of her health
      3    care while she was there. I mean, you're talking about
      4    like a medical doctor, correct?
      5          Q.   I'm talking about your MLO office, medical
      6    liaison office, was involved in the watch, correct?
      7          A.   I know that now. At the time I did not know
      8    that.
      9          Q.   At the time you didn't know that there were
      10   any people involved at all from that office in Lisa's
      11   care?
      12         A.   That's right. I thought she was going to an
      13   actual medical doctor.
      14         Q.   Well, when you told Kellerhals that you
      15   wanted her taken care of, fed --
      16         A.   Uh-huh.
      17         Q.   -- who did you think he was gonna go through
      18   but MLO?
      19         A.   Well, there's hotel people that service
      20   somebody to be fed. You don't have to go to a medical
      21   officer to get food.
      22         Q.   I know, but my understanding of your initial
      23   conversation with Kellerhals is is that Kellerhals is
      24   telling you she ain't doing so well, she's having fits
      25   of rage, not eating, not sleeping.


      1          A.   Uh-huh.
      2          Q.   Isn't that a job for M -- the MLO office to
      3               handle?
      4          A.   Not really. Well, I mean, it would be
      5    something that a doctor would handle. If somebody's
      6    not eating correctly, you would -- and you can't get
      7    them to eat or coax them into eating, well, then you'd
      8    have to call a medical doctor. We don't have --
      9          Q.   Did you tell Kellerhals to do that?
      10         A.   I told him if he couldn't get her to eat,
      11   yeah, you need to contact a medical doctor.
      12         Q.   Okay. Was that done?
      13         A.   At some point it was done. I don't know the
      14   actual duration from the time that I had that
      15   conversation until the time that a doctor was
      16   contacted...
      17         Q.   Which doctor was that?
      18         A.   Dr. Minkoff (phonetic.)
      19         Q.   Well, that was the day she died, correct?
      20         A.   No, I don't think so.
      21         Q.   Okay. Your knowledge is that he was
      22   contacted prior to the day she died?.
      23         A.   I thought so.
      24         Q.   And by who?
      25         A.   I don't know exactly.


      1          Q.   And where did you get that information?
      2          A.   My recollection is from Paul Kellerhals.
      3          Q.   He told you that Minkoff was contacted prior
      4    to her --
      5          A.   I--
      6          Q.   -- dying?
      7          A.   I think so. I'm not real clear about that,
      8    but I believe it was.
      9          Q.   And how long before she died had that
      10   occurred?
      11         A.   A week maybe.
      12         Q.   Okay. And are you aware of anything that
      13   Dr. Minkoff did in reference to her well-being? I
      14   mean, did he come see her or did he prescribe anything?
      15         A. I seem to remember that there was a
      16   recommendation about some sort of over-the-counter
      17   substance. I don't know if it was a vitamin or -- I
      18   don't remember specifically.
      19         Q.   Okay. And you don't know who made the call
      20   to Dr. Minkoff?
      21         A.   No, I don't.
      22         Q.   All right. Are you aware that Janice Johnson
      23   and Emma Schamehorn, Laura Arrunada -- who else?
      24              SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Caretakers or the
      25   medical people.


      1               MR. MCGARRY: No, MLO people.
      2    BY MR.MCGARRY:
      3          Q.   Were you aware that the MLO office, those
      4    three people, were involved with her well-being?
      5          A.   Not at that time, no.
      6          Q.   You weren't --
      7          A.   I am now.
      8          Q.   In fact, those people were involved from the
      9    get go, right? That's what you've learned -- I mean,
      10   you have that information now, right?
      11         A.   That's right.
      12         Q.   Okay.
      13         A.   Well, I don't know about Emma, but I do know
      14   that in terms of -- there was sporadic contact by
      15   Janice and Laura.
      16         Q.   How about Judy Goldsberry-Weber, was she
      17   involved? Do you know her?
      18         A.   Yes, I do. I just know of her involvement in
      19   tens of the Morton Plant incident.
      20         Q.   How come she wasn't involved if she was the
      21   public MLO officer involved in the care of Lisa
      22   McPherson?
      23         A.   I can't answer that question actually.
      24         Q.   Do you know that she -- if she was or wasn't?
      25         A.   I don't know if she was or wasn't. The only


      1    thing I specifically recall her involvement with is the
      2    Morton Plant incident.
      3          Q.   Okay. How about Susan Green, do you know if
      4    she was involved, in the care?
      5          A.   Don't know.
      6          Q.   Do you know who Susan Green is? She's
      7    been --
      8          A.   Uh-huh.
      9          Q.   -- remarried.   I think it was originally --
      10         A.   Susan Schnurrenberg.
      11         Q.   Schnurrenberg, correct?
      12         A.   No, I don't know.
      13         Q.   So how many people were in the OSA office at
      14   the time that Lisa was in Morton Plant? Sounds like
      15   the office was full staff. If you were there and your.
      16   husband was there --
      17         A.   Uh-huh.
      18         Q.   And who else was there?
      19         A.   Brain.
      20         Q.   Annie Mora?
      21         A.   Annie.
      22         Q.   And this is what time, eight or nine o'clock
      23   at night? What time was that?
      24              SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Nine o'clock.
      25              SERGEANT ANDREWS: Later, probably ten


      1    o'clock.
      2    BY MR. MCGARRY:
      3          Q.   You guys work long hours.
      4          A.   Yes, we do.
      s          Q.   So everybody that I mentioned was in the
      6    office at that time?
      7               MR. LAURO: What time are we talking
      8    about?
      9               MR. MCGARRY: I'm talking about --
      10              THE WITNESS: Nine or ten o'clock at
      11   night.
      12              MR. MCGARRY: -- nine or ten o'clock at
      13   night.
      14              MR. LAURO: What day?
      15              MR. MCGARRY: The day she went to Morton
      16   Plant.
      17              MR. LAURO: Oh, okay.
      18              THE WITNESS: To the best of my recall,
      19   yes, they were all around.
      20   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      21         Q.   Okay. What time do you guys knock off at
      22   night?
      23         A.   Well, on an average --
      24         Q.   Just out of curiosity.
      25         A.   On an average, eleven o'clock, eleven, 11:15.


      1          Q.   All right. Going back to Minkoff, who called
      2    Dr. Minkoff on December 5th? That's the day she -- she
      3    died. Do you remember who that was? Were you told who
      4    that person was?
      5          A.   No.
      6          Q.   Did you ever -- have you ever had a
      7    conversation with Dr. Minkoff --
      8          A.   No.
      9          Q.   -- in reference to this case?
      10         A.   Not myself, no.
      11         Q.   Not during, before, after, anywhere up until
      12   this day?
      13         A.   No.
      14         Q.   Okay.   When were you told that -- that Lisa
      15   passed away?
      16         A.   The evening that it occurred, which I believe
      17   was December 5th.
      18         Q.   Who told you?
      19         A.   Brian Anderson.
      20         Q.   Where were you?
      21         A.   I was in my office, which is probably about
      22   30 feet away from his desk.
      23         Q.   Okay. Who told him? Do you know?
      24         A.   I don't know. I just know that he got a
      25   phone call.


      1          Q.   And what time of night was that?
      2          A.   I think it was around eleven o'clock at
      3    night.
      4          Q.   All right. What actions did you take at that
      5    time?
      6          A.   Well, what I did was I asked Brian to -- I
      7    asked Brian for information about what had happened,
      8    you know.
      9          Q.   Now, you're -- I assume that now you are
      10   expecting there may be legal ramifications taking
      11   place?
      12         A.   That's right.
      13         Q.   Okay.
      14         A.   That's right. I asked Brian to get
      15   information about what actually had occurred, what did
      16   she die of, you know, what was the aparacy (phonetic,)
      17   whatever, she died of, and Brian said that he didn't
      18   have all the information and he would have to get more
      19   information so that I could contact the attorney.
      20         Q.   And who was that?
      21         A.   That's Bob Johnson.
      22         Q.   All right. When was Bob Johnson contacted?
      23         A.   I think I called him about -- somewhere
      24   between 11:30 and 12.
      25         Q.   That night?


      1          A.   That night.
      2          Q.   Okay. You talked to Marcus Corinno?
      3          A.   No.
      4          Q.   Okay. Were you aware of what his involvement
      5    was on December 5th?
      6          A.   No. Let me explain something as to why I'm
      7    saying that. That -- I was scheduled to go to Italy
      8    the next morning for a particular legal matter that we
      9    had ongoing in Rome, and what I was actually in the
      10   middle of doing was preparing for this particular court
      11   matter in Rome that night and preparing to leave, so I
      12   was basically -- I had turned over  everything that I
      13   had pending to Brian and Brian was  going to be my
      14   replacement while I was gone, so that was actually what
      15   I was doing. I was rather disconnected from what
      16   occurred because of the fact that I was actually gonna
      17   be out of there the next morning.
      18         Q.   And did you, in fact, leave the next
      19   morning --
      20         A.   Yes.
      21         Q.   -- for Italy?
      22         A.   Uh-huh.
      23         Q.   So Brian Anderson's the one that was in
      24   charge of your position as well as his own position?
      25         A.   That's right.


      1          Q.   He didn't remember that.
      2          A.   There was a lot of activity going on that
      3    month.
      4          Q.   Well, he got a committee of evidence out of
      5    the whole thing, so that's probably one of the other
      6    aspects of that.
      7          A.   Uh-huh.
      8          Q.   So when did you return from Italy?
      9          A.   I returned on the 23rd of December and
      10   actually was here for half a day, and then I left on
      11   the 24th and went to Miami.
      12         Q.   All right. How long were you in Miami?
      13         A.   I was in Miami, I think, for about a week or
      14   so, and then I came back for a day and then I went to
      15   Boston.
      16         Q.   All right.
      17         A.   So I returned to Clearwater, I think it was
      18   about somewhere around the 10th of January.
      19         Q.   Of '96?
      20         A.   That's right.
      21         Q.   When was it you got briefed on all the goings
      22   on with the Clearwater investigation in reference to
      23   Lisa McPherson's death?
      24         A.   When I got back.
      25         Q.   From Boston?


      1          A.   That's right. So early January.
      2          Q.   And that's when you were brought up to speed
      3    on this whole thing?
      4          A.   That's right.
      5          Q.   You were never interviewed by the police at
      6    that time, were you?
      7          A.   No.
      8          Q.   Okay. So you didn't go to the funeral, I
      9    guess Brian did?
      10         A.   It must have been Brian. It wasn't me.
      11         Q.   All right. Sometime in I guess it would have
      12   been December of '96, it might have been before then,
      13   this Lisa McPherson matter re-erupted probably in
      14   result of Dr. Woods' findings?
      15         A.   Right.
      16         Q.   Prior to that have you ever seen Lisa's PC
      17   folder?
      18         A.   No.
      19         Q.   Did you know where it was?
      20         A.   No.
      21         Q.   Where is -- where are everybody's PC folders
      22   kept in Clearwater?
      23         A.   Generally PC folders are kept in a warehouse.
      24         Q.   Okay. Were you aware of Mr. Kartuzinski's
      25   having possession of them at any time?


      1          A.   No.
      2          Q.   Were you aware of Brian Anderson having
      3    possession of them at any time?
      4          A.   No.
      5          Q.   Were you aware of Annie Mora having
      6    possession of them at any time?
      7          A.   No.
      8          Q.   Up until today?
      9          A.   No. That's correct.
      10         Q.   So -- now, you know that Annie Mora had
      11   possession of them at one time?
      12         A.   Well, no, I didn't know that specifically.
      13   know that Annie Mora had -- I had asked Annie where the
      14   pre-clear folders were.
      15         Q.   When was that?
      16         A.   When I returned in January.
      17         Q.   And what did she say?
      18         A.   And she told me that she had sent them or had
      19   them sent to Los Angeles. Whether she physically had
      20   the folders in her possession, I don't know, but she
      21   told me that she had them sent to Los Angeles.
      22         Q.   She told you that in January of '96?
      23         A.   Uh-huh.
      24         Q.   That she had already sent Lisa McPherson's
      25   pre-clear folders?


      1          A.   (Nodding head.)
      2          Q.   Do you know how many of them there were?
      3          A.   No.
      4          Q.   But she had already boxed them up and sent
      5    them to LA?
      6          A.   That's right, or she didn't have to have
      7    necessarily done them herself but that, she had them
      8    sent to Los Angeles.
      9          Q.   Okay. Who ordered that to be done?
      10         A.   I don't know, and I didn't actually ask.
      11         Q.   Why?
      12         A.   It wasn't particularly pertinent information.
      13         Q.   You're the legal officer in the OSA. Why
      14   wouldn't that be pertinent? You don't know who ordered
      15   those up?
      16         A.   No. No, I don't know who ordered it.
      17         Q.   Who does know the answer to that question?
      18         A.   I would think Annie would.
      19         Q.   Annie doesn't know the answer to that
      20   question. She actually said your name.
      21         A.   I don't know who would know, because Annie --
      22   if Annie was the one that sent them, Annie should know
      23   the one who ordered them.
      24         Q.   You would think, and I think she did use your
      25   name, so she's mistaken if she used your name in


      1    reference to ordering up those documents to send them
      2    to LA?
      3               MR. LAURO: Before you answer that, I
      4    don't have a copy of the transcript.
      5               MR. MCGARRY: I know.
      6               MR. LAURO: I think it's --
      7               MR. MCGARRY: I'm just asking her.
      8               MR. LAURO: I think the reference from
      9    Annie Mora was either Judy or Brian. I don't think she
      10   was certain as to who. I could be wrong, but that's my
      11   recollection of what her testimony was.
      12              MR. MCGARRY: I think you're accurate on
      13   her.
      14   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      15         Q.   It could have been Brian or you. And you're
      16   saying it wasn't you?
      17         A.   It wasn't me.
      18         Q.   And to the best of my recollection, Brian
      19   said it wasn't him, so who does that -- who does that
      20   leave?
      21         A.   I have no idea; I mean, you're asking me to
      22   speculate on something when I wasn't present.
      23         Q.   I'm not asking you to speculate. I'm asking
      24   you who might know the answer to my question.
      25         A.   The one who would be logical would be Annie,


      1    and if Annie and Brian don't know, then I'm stumped.
      2          Q.   Well, let me ask you further questions about
      3    that  area.
      4          A.   Sure.
      5          Q.   Why were they sent to LA? Why would
      6    somebody's PC folder be sent to LA if -- if the person
      7    lived here? She's dead. Why did it go to LA?
      8          A.   Well, that's actually pretty usual when you
      9    have an occasion where a parishioner has obviously
      10   gotten into some sort of trouble. The folders would be
      11   reviewed.
      12         Q.   By who?
      13         A.   By somebody -- somebody from the -- one of
      14   the senior officers who were in charge of the
      15   ministerial actions for the church and that's out in
      16   Los Angeles. That's pretty regular.
      17         Q.   And as a legal officer in Clearwater, the
      18   head legal officer in OSA, you don't know who that was?
      19         A.   No.
      20         Q.   I'm talking today, right now, you --
      21         A.   I understand.
      22         Q.   -- don't know who the person is that has --
      23   where are the PC files now?
      24         A.   I have no idea.
      25         Q.   You're the head legal officer. This is a


      1    legal matter. You don't know where the PC files are?
      2               MR. LAURO: Time out. She hasn't been
      3    the legal officer for over a year. She's been out of
      4    that position for quite sometime.
      5               MR. MCGARRY: She's still an OSA.
      6               THE WITNESS: No, I'm not.
      7               MR. LAURO: No, she's not. You haven't
      8    asked those questions. She's not an OSA. She hasn't
      9    been there in over a year and she hasn't participated
      10   in search for documents or anything of the kind, so you
      11   may need to go back and clarify when she left OSA.
      12   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      13         Q.   Okay. Let's go back and let's pick up where
      14   your attorney's indicated -- you got out of OSA when?
      15         A.   Well, I actually was removed from my position
      16   in legal early December -- mid December --
      17         Q.   Of--
      18         A.   -- '96.
      19         Q.   -- '96?
      20         A.   That's right.
      21         Q.   And who took your place?
      22         A.   Well, it was primarily -- there was a number
      23   of people that actually held my position, but Humberto,
      24   as my direct senior, officially held my position.
      25              SERGEANT ANDREWS: I just have a


      1    question. Are you positive it's 1996, the month after
      2    Lisa dies or a year after Lisa dies?
      3               MR. LAURO: December '96.
      4               THE WITNESS: December '96.
      5               SERGEANT ANDREWS: December '96, a year
      6    after --
      7               THE WITNESS: Right.
      8               SERGEANT ANDREWS: Okay. That makes
      9    more sense. I got it.
      10   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      11         Q.   So nobody was given your title officially?
      12         A.   No. It was vacant.
      13         Q.   Why did you get removed from your post?
      14         A.   Primarily at the time it was because of an
      15   incident that had occurred with the media contacts
      16   after the release of the autopsy report.
      17         Q.   And that would have been who, Brian Anderson
      18   and --
      19         A.   No, Humberto.
      20         Q.   Humberto?
      21         A.   Humberto was my direct senior.
      22         Q.   Well, explain the media contacts you're
      23   talking about. Let's -- give me that.
      24         A.   Okay. There was -- I don't remember which
      25   reporter. There was some reporter that had called and


      1    contacted someone in our office concerning the release
      2    of medical reports or the autopsy report, and at that
      3    time they were printing for an article that was either
      4    that day or the next day or somewhere thereabouts. I
      5    guess it must have been the next day. It was that
      6    specific day that I was removed, and it was due to
      7    basically insufficient handling on preventing it from
      8    the point of having media contact on that matter.
      9          Q.   All right. Was there a committee of evidence
      10   on that?
      11         A.   Much later, yes.
      12         Q.   In reference to that issue?
      13         A.   That issue, but actually it was kind of a
      14   broader picture than that, other legal matters as well.
      15         Q.   All right. Well, what position did you go to
      16   from there, from the OSA office?
      17         A.   Well, at that time I was kind of used as a
      18   runner within the office, runner being taking things
      19   back and forth to attorneys or even just within, you
      20   know, general church duties, not even specifically
      21   somebody in the legal department. That was the case
      22   until the end of January '97. At the end of January
      23   '97 I was sent out to Los Angeles for some correction.
      24         Q.   What does that mean, correction?
      25         A.   Well, correction meaning, you know, you've


      1    got a person who's made mistakes and needs to be
      2    corrected within our own system. There's certain
      3    actions that can be taken to remedy a staff member
      4    who's not doing well.
      5          Q.   Did you handle anything in reference to Lisa
      6    McPherson while you were in LA?
      7          A.   LA, no.
      8          Q.   Did you ever see any documents?
      9          A.   No.
      10         Q.   Did you ever see any PC folders?
      11         A.   No. That isn't what I was doing out there.
      12         Q.   So you're not aware of your post being
      13   filled? Is your post filled now, the legal --
      14         A.   Yes, it is.
      15         Q.   And who's that?
      16         A.   That's by Glenn Stilo.
      17         Q.   Stilo has it?
      18         A.   (Nodding head.) .
      19         Q.   And have you -- and have you talked to Glenn
      20   Stilo about this matter, this Lisa McPherson matter?
      21         A.   No.
      22         Q.   Not at all?
      23         A.   No.
      24         Q.   Are you aware that Glenn Stilo was kind of
      25   doing a document search in reference to some reports


      1    that we suspect are missing from Lisa's PC folder? Are
      2    you aware that he was doing that?
      3          A.   No.
      4          Q.   When's the last time you've seen Glenn Stilo?
      5          A.   This morning.
      6          Q.   Oh, he dropped you off here this morning?
      7          A.   Exactly.
      8          Q.   And you're trying to tell me that now he's --
      9    to this day you've never talked about Lisa McPherson's
      10   case with him?
      11         A.   No. I discussed it with my attorney in
      12   preparation for this meeting.
      13         Q.   I understand that. And as well as Sandy
      14   Weinberg and Lee Fugate, correct?
      15         A.   That's right.
      16         Q.   Previously, earlier?
      17         A.   Previously.
      18         Q.   This summer?
      19         A.   Uh-huh.
      20         Q.   So he is now -- what -- give me his title
      21   exactly, Glenn Stilo's position.
      22         A.    He's the legal officer for Flag, Flag Service
      23   Org.
      24         Q.   And when did he take that position?
      25         A.   I actually don't know, but it would have been


      1    sometime in the spring of '97, I would think.
      2          Q.   And you're not aware, because you're not in
      3    OSA now, nor privy to any of the Lisa McPherson talk,
      4    where the PC folder is?
      5          A.   That's right.
      6          Q.   To this -- I mean, who knows where the PC
      7    folder is right now?
      8          A.   I have no idea who knows.
      9          Q.   So in February of this year, of 1997, you
      10   were not in OSA -- at the OSA?
      11         A.   No. I was in Los Angeles.
      12         Q.   Did everybody in the OSA know that? I mean,
      13   I've talked to everybody in this OSA and this is the
      14   first time I've heard that you weren't the legal
      15   officer, really, for quite sometime.
      16         A.   I would have thought they would know about
      17   that.
      18         Q.   Well--
      19         A.   Maybe they thought I was.
      20         Q.   A lot of people give you credit that I've
      21   talked to for doing a lot of things, and, of course,
      22   now you are denying any participation practically
      23   whatsoever in the Lisa McPherson case.
      24              MR. LAURO: Wait, wait, wait. That's a
      25   little bit of an overstatement, because I don't think


      1    you've asked certain questions..
      2               MR. MCGARRY: In reference to records.
      3               MR. LAURO: In reference to collection
      4    of records, I think that's a fair statement.
      5    BY MR. MCGARRY:
      6          Q.   Right. In reference to the records you're
      7    out of the loop?
      8          A.   That's right.
      9          Q.   Other than knowing that Annie Mora sent them
      10   to LA? You knew that?
      11         A.   That's right.
      12         Q.   But you don't know why she sent them or who
      13   asked for them or who ordered that?
      14         A.   That's right.
      15         Q.   Are you aware who the person is that actually
      16   went through the PC folder and determined what was
      17   caretaker notes and what wasn't?
      18         A.   No.
      19         Q.   Have you ever met Kathy O'Gorman in this
      20   case? Have you ever met Kathy O'Gorman, period?
      21         A.   Yes.
      22         Q.   And where does she reside, California?
      23         A.   As far as I know, California.
      24         Q.   Okay. Did you ever talk to her about the
      25   Lisa McPherson case?


      1          A.   No.
      2          Q.   How about Becky Ellenberg?
      3          A.   I don't know who that is.
      4          Q.   Okay. How about Ken Long?
      5          A.   I did have a conversation with Ken Long, not
      6    specifically about this case. Explain a little bit on
      7    that point. I had mentioned that on December 5th when
      8    I found out about Lisa McPherson and her death, the
      9    next morning I was scheduled to go to Italy. The
      10   individual who was making the arrangements for me to go
      11   to Italy was Ken Long. I had actually wanted to stay
      12   and work on Lisa McPherson instead of going to Italy,
      13   and I contacted Ken Long in terms of mentioning that
      14   she had died, but at that time I didn't have very many
      15   specifics, and I requested for my -- to be able to
      16   delay my trip to Italy, and he said no, so that was the
      17   conversation I had regarding Lisa McPherson. It wasn't
      18   concerning the case at that time. Obviously, nothing
      19   had happened.
      20         Q.   So you've never personally seen Lisa's PC
      21   folder?
      22         A.   No.
      23         Q.   How about any other documents in reference to
      24   Lisa McPherson's stay at the hotel during those two
      25   weeks? Annie Mora's document, did you ever see that


      1    summary, three-page summary?
      2          A.   Yes, I did see that.
      3          Q.   Okay. When was that?
      4          A.   That was in -- when I came back in January
      5    '97 -- '96, sorry.
      6          Q.   She showed you that?
      7          A.   That's right.
      8          Q.   Did you ever talk to Bennetta Slaughter about
      9    this case?
      10         A.   No.
      11         Q.   Do you know who Bennetta Slaughter is?
      12         A.   Yes, I do.
      13         Q.   How do you know her?
      14         A.   I know her. She's quite an active
      15   $©ientologist in public relations activities.
      16              MR. LAURO: Mark, you may have asked
      17   this question and then asked another question at the
      18   same time. I think you asked one broad question about
      19   any documents and then you went onto a specific
      20   document, so I don't know if you're still at that
      21   pending question --
      22              MR. MCGARRY: Yeah.
      23              MR. LAURO: -- on all documents that
      24   Judy may have had contact with.


      1    BY MR. MCGARRY:
      2          Q.   Other documents other than this one?
      3          A.   In January I saw that document plus there
      4    were some handwritten notes that were done by some of
      5    the staff members who were interviewed in December.
      6          Q.   Handwritten notes?
      7          A.   Uh-huh.
      8          Q.   And who provided those to you?
      9          A.   Well, it was either Annie -- Annie or Brian,
      10   and it was in a file that was given to me when I came
      11   back and, you know, what I could review concerning the
      12   Lisa McPherson matter.
      13         Q.   They were written in hand and they weren't
      14   typed, right?
      15         A.   That's right.
      16         Q.   And they were summaries from caretakers in
      17   reference to what they had observed, the ongoings of
      18   Lisa?
      19              MR. LAURO: No.
      20              THE WITNESS: No, not caretakers.
      21   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      22         Q.   Oh, who?
      23         A.   There was -- the ones I specifically recall
      24   is Alain Kartuzinski and Laura Arrunada.
      25         Q.   She's a caretaker.


      1               MR. LAURO: Yeah, but these relate to, I
      2    think, something else.
      3               THE WITNESS: They weren't related to
      4    that.
      5               MR. LAURO: Go ahead. You explain.
      6               THE WITNESS: I'm thinking of
      7    contents. It was specifically relating to her
      8    interview with -- I believe there was a police officer
      9    that came to the Hacienda or something thereabouts.
      10   There were some -- there were specific debriefs of the
      11   questions and responses concerning those specific
      12   interviews. That's what they were.
      13   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      14         Q.   And who -- let's go over the people. Alain
      15   Kartuzinski?
      16         A.   Alain, Laura, and I believe also -- I'm
      17   pretty sure it was also Janice.
      18         Q.   Would they have been handwritten notes that
      19   they were requested to do by a security guard or by a
      20   Clearwater police officer or in reference to -- do you
      21   know which one's which?
      22         A.   Well, it wouldn't have been a police officer.
      23              It would have been someone internal for the purpose of
      24   providing church counsel with information about what
      25   occurred in these interviews.


      1          Q.   So those --
      2               MR. LAURO: Wait, wait. I'm confused.
      3    You need to clarify that. Did -- did these notes
      4    relate to interviews conducted by a police officer or
      5    interviews conducted by an internal security person?
      6               THE WITNESS: No, no, by a police
      7    officer.
      8               MR. LAURO: Okay.
      9               THE WITNESS: There were meetings that
      10   had occurred with the police officers.
      11   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      12         Q.   Oh, all right. See, the confusion lies in
      13   some areas of -- I have information that one of the
      14   security people at the church requested Greenwood,
      15   Arrunada and Johnson do a summary of their trip to the
      16   hospital, okay?
      17         A.   Uh-huh.
      18         Q.   And they've all indicated that they did those
      19   summaries and turned them into the security
      20   headquarters down there in the parking garage.
      21         A.   Uh-huh.
      22         Q.   Those are missing.
      23         A.   I see.
      24         Q.   We're not talking about those? You're not
      25   talking about those?


      1          A.   No, I'm not talking about those. Paul
      2    Greenwood was one of them, was one of the other ones,
      3    and it was basically summaries of the interviews that
      4    they had with the police officers.
      5          Q.   With these guys, Clearwater Police
      6    Department?
      7          A.   Yeah. In the summaries they didn't say who
      8    from the police department, but that's correct. It was
      9    police officers.
      10         Q.   All right. Okay. How about the summaries
      11   that Marcus Corinno did, did you ever see those?
      12         A.   No.
      13         Q.   Were you aware that Brian Anderson indicated
      14   that he -- were you privy to the information that Brian
      15   Anderson destroyed a lot of caretaker's notes in
      16   reference to their meeting with Marcus Corinno?
      17         A.   No.
      18         Q.   All right.
      19              MR. LAURO: There's one other contact
      20   with documents that I think she needs to explain
      21   before --
      22              MR. MCGARRY: All right.
      23              MR. LAURO: -- in full answer to that
      24   one question, so --
      25              THE WITNESS: What was the -- I thought


      1    the -- what was the specific question on this one?
      2    thought I answered it.
      3               MR. LAURO: The question was what --
      4               MR. MCGARRY: There's a lot of --
      5               MR. LAURO: What contact you had with
      6    any Lisa McPherson documents, and that --
      7               THE WITNESS: Okay.
      8               MR. LAURO: -- question needs to be
      9    fully answered.
      10              THE WITNESS: Okay.
      11   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      12         Q.   We talked about Annie Mora's documents, we
      13   talked about those documents that you saw that
      14   Greenwood, Mora and Arrunada wrote.
      15         A.   That was in January. There was a later time
      16   period, and I think it was March, April, sometime
      17   around there -- that wasn't a document. That was in --
      18   I was asked to prepare a transcript of some interviews
      19   that were done with the police department of which I
      20   did do the transcript. This was at the request of my
      21   attorney, and that was obviously a document after I
      22   had --
      23         Q.   Uh-huh.
      24         A.   -- you know, created it.
      25         Q.   A transcript of your interview of the people


      1    that --
      2          A.   Transcript of interviews that were done with
      3    the police department in, I think it was either March,
      4    April or May. I forget which one occurred when, but
      5    there were several interviews that were done.
      6          Q.   March, April or May of --
      7          A.   Of '96.
      8          Q.   -- '96?
      9          A.   That's right.
      10         Q.   Who were those people?
      11         A.   Janice, Alain, Judy Goldsberry-Weber. There
      12   were others done, but those were the three I typed.
      13         Q.   How did you get the information from them,
      14   writing it or from them telling you?
      15         A.   No, it was from my attorney.
      16         Q.   No. You made summaries for your attorney or
      17   for the attorney?
      18         A.   No. I transcribed the tape from my attorney.
      19              SERGEANT ANDREWS: Bob Johnson was --
      20              MR. MCGARRY: I got it.
      21              SERGEANT ANDREWS: -- present during the
      22   interviews and he ran a tape and I ran a tape, so we
      23   had a typed conversation.
      24              THE WITNESS: I created those documents
      25   and proofread them and that sort of thing.


      1               MR. MCGARRY: All right. Well, that
      2    clears it up for me. Thanks.
      3    BY MR. MCGARRY:
      4          Q.   When did Ben Shaw arrive?
      5          A.   I think it was December '96.
      6          Q.   And what is his position?
      7          A.   His position currently you mean?
      8          Q.   Uh-huh.
      9          A.   He's the commanding officer for the Office of
      10   Special Affairs at Flag.
      11         Q.   Whose position did he take?
      12         A.   He took Humberto's position.
      13         Q.   Well, who enjoys Brian Anderson's old
      14   position?
      15         A.   Humberto did. Brian was replaced in summer
      16   of '96.
      17         Q.   By Humberto?
      18         A.   That's right.
      19         Q.   And currently where is Humberto --
      20         A.   He's --
      21         Q.   -- right now?
      22         A.   Where is he located?
      23         Q.   No. What's his title?
      24         A.   Oh, he's the social reform officer.
      25         Q.   Right. And Ben Shaw's title currently?


      1          A.   Commanding officer.
      2          Q.   Brian Anderson's old position, formerly
      3    Humberto's?
      4          A.   Yeah, formerly -- yeah, two positions ago.
                 Q.   Who's the person in charge from the church --
      6    who's the point man from the church on the Lisa
      7    McPherson case right now?
      8          A.   That would be the legal officer, so it would
      9    be Glenn, Glenn Stilo.
      10         Q.   So he's the person if there's a question a
      11   lawyer has -- I'm not --
      12              MR. LAURO: That's unfair, though,
      13   because she's been out of it for, you know, over a
      14   year, so she has not been dealing with any of the
      15   lawyers, and I think she'd be just speculating on who's
      16   dealing with the lawyers.
      17         Q.   Do you know Mary DeMoss?
      18         A.   No.
      19              MR. MCGARRY: All right. I'm sure these
      20   detectives have a couple questions for you.
      21              MR. LAURO: Take about a five-minute
      22   break? Would that be okay?
      23              MR. MCGARRY: Yeah. I was just gonna
      24   ask you if you wanted to take a break.
      25            (Whereupon, a break was taken.)


      1               MR. LAURO: We need to clarify a couple
      2    things on the record.
      3               MR. MCGARRY: Okay.
      4               MR. LAURO: If we're back on the record,
      5    Mr. McGarry had asked a question about Ms. --
      6    Mrs. Fontana's contact with documents, and there were
      7    apparently two other instances where Mrs. Fontana may
      8    have had contact with some documents relating to Lisa
      9    McPherson. She's going to put that an the record.
      10              MR. MCGARRY: All right.
      11              THE WITNESS: Okay. It was sometime, I
      12   think, around -- it was either March, April, May '96
      13   which I found an accordion file in -- somewhere in a
      14   general files area in OSA which was actually a file
      15   that Annie had had, and it was about -- maybe about two
      16   inches -- two or three inches thick, and it had some
      17   various reports in it. I didn't sit there and flip
      18   through it, but the first couple pages I looked at were
      19   caretaker reports, and what I did was I actually took
      20   the file and brought it down to my attorney at that
      21   time, Bob Johnson, and gave it over to him.
      22              In terms of what the reports all were,
      23   because of the fact I didn't read them, itemize them or
      24   whatever, I can't actually tell you that. I can only
      25   tell you that it was about two inches thick worth of


      1    documents, and a couple of them were caretaker reports,
      2    but it definitely was not the entirety of it.
      3    BY MR. MCGARRY:
      4          Q.   Was this file -- where -- where exactly was
      5    this file located?
      6          A.   In Annie's office.
      7               MR. LAURO: You may want to tell
      8    Mr. McGarry why you would be looking for documents at
      9    that point.
      10              THE WITNESS: Well, I actually wasn't.
      11   I was looking for something entirely different.
      12   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      13         Q.   What were you looking for?
      14         A.   I don't remember. It was something -- it
      15   didn't even have to do with Lisa McPherson.
      16         Q.   Did you tell Annie that you removed a file
      17   from her office?
      18         A.   Yeah. I said, "Annie, what are you doing
      19   with this? I thought you said -- you told me you
      20   didn't have any documents concerning Lisa McPherson
      21   here", and she said, "Oh, I forgot about this one," and
      22   so I took it to Bob Johnson.
      23         Q.   Two-inch thick?
      24         A.   Yeah. It was about -- yeah, about that
      25              (indicating.)


      1          Q.   And that would have been where in
      2    relationship to the time that you told me that Annie
      3    sent all those other documents to LA?
      4          A.   About four months after that.
      5          Q.   So it was four months after that you found
      6    more documents in Annie Mora's office that didn't make
      7    it to LA?
      8          A.   Uh-huh.
      9          Q.   And Bob Johnson knew about that, because he
      10   was sent those documents?
      11         A.   Well, he knew about that when I took them to
      12   him, sure.
      13         Q.   Right. Why did you give them to him and not
      14   send them out to LA with the rest of the stuff?
      15         A.   Because of the fact that he and I were
      16   working on the McPherson matter.
      17         Q.   Well, do you see what my question is? Some
      18   documents went to LA, some documents went to him.
      19         A.   Right. But I didn't send anything to LA.
      20   And those were PC folders, which is not something that
      21   would have gone to Bob Johnson anyway.
      22         Q.   What capacity were you acting in when you did
      23   that?
      24         A.   As a person --
      25         Q.   What was your position?


      1          A.   Legal officer.
      2          Q.   All right. And that's March --
      3          A.   That's right.
      4          Q.   -- of '96?
      5          A.   Well, it was either -- I don't remember if it
      6    was March, April or May. It was somewhere within that
      7    three-month time period. I don't remember the exact
      8    sequence of the time period.
      9          Q.   And where was that in relationship to going
      10   to LA and being gone for the summer?
      11         A.   Well, that's '97. We're talking about '96
      12   right now. March, April, May.
      13         Q.   So you went to LA this -- this year?
      14         A.   That's right, in January '97, so it was
      15   sometime around March, April, May '96.
      16         Q.   That you found a two-inch thick --
      17         A.   File.
      18         Q.   -- file folder containing Lisa McPherson's --
      19         A.   Actually, it wasn't a file folder. It was an
      20   accordion file.
      21         Q.   Was it a PC file?
      22         A.   No.
      23         Q.   It was just a file? $
      24         A.   That's right. It was an accordion file.
      25         Q.   What did it say on the outside of the file?


      1          A.   It didn't say anything. It was just like one
      2    of these brown accordion files that are just brown,
      3    and, you know, it didn't have a label on it
      4    particularly.
      5          Q.   No label?
      6          A.   No, unlabeled.
      7          Q.   With information about caretakers notes at
      8    least on the first few pages?
      9          A.   Right.
      10         Q.   And that was in Annie Mora's office?
      ii         A.   Right.
      12         Q.   Where in Annie Mora's office?
      13         A.   Let's see; I think it was in her filing
      14   cabinet that I found it.
      15         Q.   And --
      16         A.   It was either a filing cabinet or a banker's
      17   box. I don't remember which.
      18         Q.   And you -- you talked to Annie Mora about
      19   that?
      20         A.   Uh-huh.
      21         Q.   And what did you say?
      22         A.   I said, "I thought you didn't have any files
      23   here. Do you have anything else?" And she said, "No."
      24         Q.   And you're saying after that's when
      25   everything went to LA?


      1               MR. LAURO: No.
      2               THE WITNESS: No, no.
      3    BY MR. MCGARRY:
      4          Q.   Before that? Before that everything went to
      5    LA?
      6          A.   Yeah. The sequence was when I came back in
      7    January --
      8          Q.   Of '96?
      9          A.   -- of '96 I asked Annie -- I was getting
      10   information from Annie and Brian as to what had
      11   occurred in my absence, what documents could I look at,
      12   what was here. What I was given by Annie was just one
      13   file folder with these few particles that I was telling
      14   you about, these debriefs of the interviews with the
      15   police department, et cetera.
      16         Q.   That was in January?
      17         A.   That was in January. She had said at that
      18   time she had already sent folders out to Los Angeles
      19   that had the PC folders in them, and I asked her was
      20   there anything else and she said, "No. That's all I
      21   remember is the PC folders." I said, "Okay. So you
      22   don't have anything else here?" "No, I have nothing
      23   else here."
      24              Okay. So then I reviewed that one file that
      25   I had. Two or three months or four months after that


      1    was when I found this accordion file that had these
      2    reports in them or at least a couple pages of reports.
      3    I do remember that one of the other things that was in
      4    that file was that summary that you've got over there.
      s          Q.   Uh-huh.
      6          A.   And I asked her, "Do you have any other
      7    documents since you didn't mention this one earlier?"
      8    And she said, "No, that's all I have. I forgot about
      9    this." I said, "Okay." I took that file and I took it
      10   to Bob Johnson that same day.
      11         Q.   Okay. Throughout all that transaction that
      12   you had and interaction you had with Annie you were
      13   still the legal officer, right?
      14         A.   Uh-huh.
      15         Q.   And throughout all that you didn't know who
      16   ordered all the PC files to go to LA?
      17         A.   No.
      18         Q.   But Annie -- Annie didn't know either, right?
      19   She was just directed by --
      20         A.   Annie -- Annie didn't remember very much
      21   about it. I asked her,  not specifically, who had
      22   ordered it but where did she send them. She couldn't
      23   remember exactly where she had sent them other than she
      24   had sent them to Los Angeles.
      25         Q.   Not to a name or anything, just to LA?


      1          A.   Right. She sent them to somebody in LA. She
      2    couldn't remember who, and I asked her if she had an
      3    itemization of what she sent, and she didn't have that
      4    either.
      5          Q.   And yet you sent the remainder of the stuff
      6    that you found to Bob Johnson?
      7          A.   Well, I actually hand-delivered them. I
      8    didn't send them.
      9          Q.   All right.
      10         A.   I actually drove them to Bob Johnson that
      11   day, yeah.
      12         Q.   All right. Where are those documents now?
      13         A.   I don't know where they are now. All I can
      14   say is that I took them to Bob Johnson and Bob Johnson
      15   at that time, I believe, gave them to somebody else who
      16   was here from Los Angeles, Kurt Wieland.
      17         Q.   Who is he?
      18         A.   Well, he's a staff member at the Office of
      19   Special Affairs International, and I don't know what
      20   actually his current position is.
      21         Q.   So you did know -- so you do know who some
      22   documents went to in LA, this guy Wieland, at least the
      23   ones from Bob Johnson's --
      24         A.   Well, that's what Bob told me. He told me
      25   that he gave them to Kurt.


      1          Q.   He did?
      2          A.   Yeah.
      3          Q.   When did he tell you that?
      4          A.   The day that I gave them to him or the day
      5    after.
      6          Q.   How could he do that if you just gave it to
      7    him?
      8          A.   Because we were all in the office together.
      9          Q.   You gave Bob Johnson the documents?
      10         A.   Right.
      11         Q.   He says I'm giving them to so and so --
      12         A.   Right.
      13         Q.   -- in California?
      14         A.   Exactly. Who -- he was also there present in
      15   the office at the time.
      16         Q.   Oh.
      17         A.   We were all sitting there in the office.
      18         Q.   So you were having a meeting with some LA
      19   people?
      20         A.   We were all in the office. He was having a
      21   meeting -- they were having a meeting about something
      22   else. I was having a meeting with Bob about something
      23   else, and he said --
      24         Q.   Unrelated to Lisa McPherson?
      25         A.   That's right.


      1          Q.   And you just showed up with some expando file
      2    with Lisa McPherson's stuff?
      3          A.   That's right.
      4          Q.   And said oh, by the way, here's some Lisa
      5    McPherson stuff? And this guy Wieland said oh, I'll
      6    take those?
      7          A.   No.
      8          Q.   How'd that go?
      9          A.   No. Here's what occurred. I drove down to
      10   Tampa and gave the documents to Bob Johnson. Kurt
      11   Wieland was already separately meeting with him. I
      12   said, "Here" --
      13         Q.   Is this totally coincidental -- coincidence
      14   that you happened to --
      15         A.   Yeah.
      16         Q.   -- hit this thing at the same time Bob
      17   Johnson's having this meeting with this Scientologist
      18   from California?
      19         A.   That's right.
      20         Q.   Okay.
      21         A.   He happened to be down here because it was
      22   around the time when some major events were going on.
      23   When there is a major event going on we have a lot of
      24   people come down to Clearwater.
      25         Q.   Right.


      1          A.   That's why I say sometime in March, April or
      2    May -- those are our two major event Periods, March and
      3    May. Sometime during that period he was down in the
      4    office. I gave the accordion file to Bob Johnson.
      5    Kurt Wieland wasn't there when I gave the file to Bob
      6    Johnson. He was in the general office, but, I mean, he
      7    wasn't standing right there, and then I think it was
      8    the next day that Bob in another conversation about
      9    something totally different said, "Oh, I gave the file
      10   over to Kurt when he was here."
      11         Q.   So he took the file?
      12         A.   That's right. That's what Bob told me.
      13         Q.   And it's your impression that that file
      14   contained caretaker's notes but not all the caretaker's
      15   notes?
      16         A.   Well, I don't know how many caretaker notes
      17   there are going to be, but there wasn't very many of
      18   them. There was only just a couple of them. The rest
      19   of the file had some other kind of things in them.
      20         Q.   So--
      21         A.   I think it was interview notes, transcripts.
      22         Q.   So that means there were two separate files
      23   floating around with different sets of caretaker notes
      24   in them, at least two sets of files, one PC file and
      25   one file with no name on it?


      1          A.   Must -- well, I can't say anything about the
      2    PC folders, whether they had caretaker notes in them or
      3    not.
      4          Q.   Well, we've already heard people talk about
      5    those.  So let me ask you this: Were there this many
      6    caretaker notes in there (indicating?)
      7          A.   No. No, there wasn't.
      8          Q.   How do you know they were caretaker notes
      9    that you were looking at?
      10         A.   Because it said something on the top and
      11   indicated that they were caretaker notes.
      12         Q.   Like what?
      13         A.   Like Report or Daily Report or something like
      14   that, and then like the first paragraph or so was
      15   concerning Lisa.
      16         Q.   Were they similar to these (indicating?)
      17         A.   No.
      18         Q.   Not similar to these (indicating?)
      19         A.   Well, let me look through. them here. It was
      20   more like this kind of stuff (indicating.) This may
      21   have been a couple of them. Looks like a couple -- it
      22   was something more like this kind of a report
      23              (indicating.)
      24         Q.   Do you recall who the author of the report
      25   was?


      1          A.   No. See, like I didn't sit there and read
      2    the whole thing. If you just look at this, it doesn't
      3    actually -- well, this one does, but something like
      4    this doesn't particularly indicate who the author of
      5    the report was.
      6          Q.   So you didn't read them, you just sent them
      7    off?
      8          A.   Right.
      9          Q.   I thought -- weren't you trying to brief
      10   yourself with the documents in the case at this time,
      11   because you were still the legal officer at that
      12   particular time?
      13         A.   Uh-huh.
      14         Q.   But you didn't read the documents, you just
      15   sent them forth?
      16         A.   (Nodding head.)
      17         Q.   You didn't discuss the documents with the
      18   lawyer at the time?
      19         A.   No.
      20         Q.   Whose job would it have been -- I mean, who
      21   was he dealing with if it wasn't you at that time? You
      22   were the legal officer.
      23         A.   That's true. He would normally have
      24   discussed them with me. He wanted to read them first
      25   and, you know, get back to me on it.


      1          Q.   And he didn't?
      2          A.   And that's why we had the subsequent
      3    conversation about, you know, "Well, what came up in
      4    the documents?" And he said, "Well, I gave them to
      5    Kurt Wieland."
      6          Q.   Did you discuss with him where the other
      7    documents were that pertained to the caretaker's notes,
      8    if you remember? I mean --
      9               MR. LAURO: Now you're getting into
      10   attorney/client issues in terms of what was discussed
      11   with Johnson.
      12   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      13         Q.   Well, did you have a conversation with him in
      14   reference to the documents other than the ones you
      15   handed to him? Not what you said just if you had a
      16   conversation with him.
      17              MR. LAURO: Without disclosing the
      18   exact --
      19              THE WITNESS: Contents.
      20              MR. LAURO: -- contents.
      21   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      22         Q.   Did you have a conversation with him about
      23   the documents --
      24         A.   Uh-huh.
      25         Q.   -- that got sent to LA?


      1          A.   That was the conversation I had with him
      2    about the documents that were sent to LA.
      3          Q.   But these documents weren't all the
      4    documents, right?
      5          A.   That's --
      6          Q.   These weren't all the caretaker's notes?
      7          A.   I don't know that they were or they weren't.
      8          Q.   Well, I just showed you a stack.
      9          A.   Right. Well, you're telling me that now. At
      10   that time I didn't know that there was caretaker
      11   reports at all other than the ones that I had seen in
      12   there.
      13         Q.   Did you not investigate to see how many
      14   caretaker notes there were available?
      15         A.   No.
      16         Q.   Who -- who would do that if it wasn't you in
      17   the legal department?
      18         A.   Well, generally Annie Mora. would.
      19         Q.   Annie Mora did that?
      20         A.   I said generally that would be something that
      21   Annie Mora would do. Whether she did that or not, I
      22   don't know.
      23         Q.   Did Annie explain to you why she did not send
      24   those documents with the other documents to LA as she
      25   did -- you know, sent the previous documents?


      1          A.   She didn't have a very good explanation for
      2    that.
      3          Q.   What explanation was that?
      4          A.   Just that she didn't notice them before
      5    because it wasn't a labeled file.
      6          Q.   Well, who -- who would have gone through them
      7    to put them in two separate files? My understanding is
      8    that all these things went to Alain Kartuzinski and all
      9    these documents went into the PC folder. This
      10   apparently was not a PC folder, correct?
      11         A.   No, definitely not a PC folder.
      12         Q.   It was not a PC folder?
      13         A.   No. PC folders have very distinguishable
      14   characteristics.
      15         Q.   All right. So did you go through -- you said
      16   there was two inches of material in that file, right?
      17         A.   Uh-huh.
      18         Q.   So if it wasn't auditing or a PC folder, then
      19   that's two inches of caretaker notes that you were
      20   looking at?
      21         A.   No. I said that there weren't two inches of
      22   caretaker notes.
      23         Q.   Okay. What were the rest of the notes?
      24         A.   There was the earlier debriefs that I
      25   mentioned, the handwritten debriefs of the meetings


      1    with Clearwater Police Department officers in December
      2    of '95.
      3          Q.   Uh-huh.
      4          A.   There was that write-up that Annie Mora had
      5    written, and I don't remember what else there was.
      6          Q.   So do you know where that file is right now?
      7          A.   No, I don't.
      8          Q.   Who would?
      9          A.   Probably. Kurt Wieland or Bob Johnson.
      10              MR. MCGARRY: Bob Johnson's not working
      11   on this anymore, I don't believe. Correct me if I'm
      12   wrong. He's not --
      13              MR. LAURO: I don't believe he's
      14   representing the church, not on this matter. I think
      15   he might be representing the church on other matters
      16   but not on this matter.
      17              MR. MCGARRY: Okay. Well, these guys
      18   have some questions for you.
      19              MR. LAURO: And there's one other --
      20              MR. MCGARRY: Oh, one other document.
      21             THE WITNESS: Oh, that's right. Then
      22   the other occasion that I had to see a document was
      23   when I was in Los Angeles, and this was -- I think it
      24   was around March or so '97. I was not, you know,
      25   working at the Office of Special Affairs at that time


      1    anymore, but when I was out there on my program and
      2    actually I was doing some renovations work out there, I
      3    was called by Elliott Ableson who's an attorney for the
      4    Church of Scientology International, and Elliott had
      5    called me to find out if I had ever seen  a document
      6    that had been put together by Marcus Corinno, and he
      7    just, you know, held it up for me. And it looked
      8    similar to -- I think you may have showed me this
      9    document that Marcus had done. He asked me if I had
      10   ever seen it, and I skimmed through it and saw that it
      11   had various summaries of, you know, the caretakers, and
      12   I said no, I had never seen it before, and he said
      13   so -- let me backtrack.
      14              I think -- actually, at that time I don't
      15   think it was known that it was Marcus Corinno. I later
      16   found out that it was Marcus Corinno's, and he said,
      17   "Have you ever seen this before?" and I said, "No." He
      18   said, "Do you have any idea who compiled this?" and I
      19   said, "No." And that was pretty much the sum total of
      20   it, and it was two or three pages long.
      21   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      22         Q.   And that was the only work you did on Lisa
      23   McPherson while in LA?
      24         A.   Well, that wasn't actually doing work on it,
      25   but there was that interview.


      1          Q.   Any involvement --
      2          A.   And then I was also interviewed after that by
      3    Sandy Weinberg, and I think that was April or May '97,
      4    Sandy and Lee Fugate.
      5               MR. MCGARRY: All right. Okay. Lee or
      6    Wayne?
      7               SPECIAL AGENT STROPE: Go ahead, Wayne.
      8               SERGEANT ANDREWS: I'm crossing some of
      9    them off you've already answered.
      10              THE WITNESS: Okay.
      12         Q.   You mentioned that you were not familiar at
      13   all on why Lisa was staying at the Fort Harrison Hotel,
      14   or did you ever answer that? I'm not too sure. I
      15   missed that.
      16         A.   I think I did. I think I said that my
      17   understanding was she requested to go to the Fort
      18   Harrison.
      19         Q.   Okay. To stay?
      20         A.   Right, to stay.
      21         Q.   Okay. Have you ever been involved in an
      22   isolation watch or an introspection run-down before?
      23         A.   No.
      24         Q.   Okay. Were you familiar with those terms and
      25   that -- that tech --


      1    Goldsberry-Weber ever call you and you said no, and now
      2    we're qualifying to Lisa and now we're going to qualify
      3    to what part of Lisa. I think the first question, did
      4    Judy Goldsberry-Weber ever call you was a pretty simple
      5    question. I mean, I got a no; but now I'm not getting
      6    a no.
      7               MR. LAURO: I don't remember that
      8    question being asked by Mark.
      9               MR. MCGARRY: Let's start over with the
      10   question.
      11              THE WITNESS: I'm confused now.
      12              MR. MCGARRY: I think he wants to know
      13   whether she called you in reference to Lisa McPherson.
      14   Have you ever talked to her about other matters?
      15              THE WITNESS: Oh, sure. Tons of times.
      16              MR. MCGARRY: That clears it up. He
      17   to know whether or not you ever talked to her
      18   about Lisa.
      19              MR. LAURO: What time frame?
      20              MR. MCGARRY: She only knew Lisa when
      21   she was staying at the hotel.
      22              MR. LAURO: But it could have been after
      23   the death, before the death. I mean, at any time did
      24   you talk to Judy Goldsberry-Weber concerning Lisa
      25   McPherson?


      1               THE WITNESS: Well, yes. There  was a
      2    time right before her interview. I think it was
      3    like -- I don't remember. Again, I don't remember if
      4    it's March, April or May of '96 Judy was interviewed.
      6          Q.   Okay.
      7          A.   And being the liaison to church counsel, I
      8    did have conversations about Judy coming in and meeting
      9    with church counsel concerning her upcoming interview.
      10         Q.   And what were those conversations about?
      11         A.   Between me and her? Like in terms of what
      12   time the attorney was gonna be there and, you know,
      13   coordinating what she needed to do so that she could
      14   come out of the area that she was working. You know,
      15   more like coordination of logistics, meeting times,
      16   places, that sort of thing.
      17         Q.   Did you ever discuss the testimony of what
      18   she was going to testify to or talk to?
      19         A.   Personally, no. I was present with the
      20   attorney assisting the attorney when she was discussing
      21   the preparation for her meeting.
      22         Q.   And this was prior to her coming in and
      23   talking to the police?
      24         A.   That's right.  That was like within a day or
      25   so, I think.


      1          Q.   All right. Tell me about that, the
      2    conversation.
      3               MR. LAURO: Well, that's privileged.
      4               SERGEANT ANDREWS: Not to her. She's
      s    not an attorney, and she's present in the -- in the
      6    room.
      7               MR. LAURO: She's acting under the
      8    direction of her lawyer. It's a privileged
      9    conversation.
      10              SERGEANT ANDREWS: I disagree, Mark.
      11              MR. MCGARRY: This is a conversation --
      12   I'm confused here -- you had with Judy and who else?
      13              THE WITNESS: Bob Johnson.
      14              MR. LAURO: It's not a conversation.
      15   It's Bob Johnson interviewing Judy Goldsberry-Weber --
      16              THE WITNESS: That's right.
      17              MR. LAURO: -- that Judy is sitting in
      18   and assisting Bob Johnson in conducting that interview.
      19              THE WITNESS: That's right.
      20              MR. MCGARRY: If she's there, how can it
      21   be privileged?
      22              MR. LAURO: Because she's assisting the
      23   lawyer.
      24              SERGEANT ANDREWS: Absolutely not.
      25   That's absolutely not. If she's sitting there during a


      1    confession to a priest that privilege to her does not
      2    extend, and I want her to answer the question as to
      3    what Judy Goldsberry-Weber and Johnson talked about.
      4               MR. LAURO: You'll have to take that up
      5    with the judge.
      6               MR. MCGARRY: Is that a problem area,
      7    what Judy said? Why don't you discuss it with her and
      8    see if it's a problem area?
      9               MR. LAURO: I don't think it is a
      10   problem area.
      11              MR. MCGARRY: You're just trying to
      12   assert the privilege. We can avoid going to the judge
      13   if you will see if that's information that's
      14   privileged. If it's not -- I assume it has something
      15   to do with Judy telling the lawyer -- I mean, he's just
      16   debriefing her, right? He's not representing Judy.
      17   He's not representing this person, correct?
      18              MR. LAURO: Well what I'm saying -- I
      19   mean, I can't waive a privilege on behalf of an
      20   institution or a church organization. That's something
      21   that -- if the church tells you that they have no
      22   problems with that conversation being revealed, then I
      23   have no problem with that conversation being revealed,
      24   but it seems to me that, as a lawyer, it's a
      25   conversation that another lawyer is having with a


      1    representative of an organization that would normally
      2    be covered by the attorney/client privilege. I think
      3    we all agree on that.
      4               MR. MCGARRY: Uh-huh.
      5               MR. LAURO: And to the extent that Judy
      6    is acting in the capacity of assisting that lawyer,
      7    then that's privileged. For example, when I interview
      8    a witness I often have my secretary sit in. Now, she's
      9    not a lawyer. I'm not representing her, but that
      10   conversation is privileged because that secretary's
      11   assisting me, so, you know, I think any judge -- any
      12   judge would agree that it's a privileged conversation
      13   but for a waiver.
      14              BY MR. MCGARRY:
      15         Q.   Did -- all right. Is that the only time you
      16   had a conversation with Judy Goldsberry-Weber about the
      17   Lisa McPherson incident?
      18         A.   That's right, other than, you know, the time
      19   about telling her when to show up for her attorney
      20   meeting and that sort of thing.
      21         Q.   She didn't call you during this week?
      22         A.   You mean the week of her death?
      23         Q.   Yeah.
      24         A.   No.
      25         Q.   The week of her stay at the hotel.


      1          A.   No.
      2          Q.   Judy Goldsberry-Weber never called you?
      3          A.   No.
      4               MR. MCGARRY: Okay. That's the ultimate
      5    question you were going to ask, right?
      6               BY  SERGEANT ANDREWS:
      7          Q.   Yeah. Judy Goldsberry-Weber under oath says
      8    she actually called you more than twice and wanted to
      9    know what was happening with Lisa?
      10         A.   (Shaking head.)
      11         Q.   That didn't happen?
      12         A.   No.
      13         Q.   Okay. What changes has the church made in
      14   reference to the medical liaison office position since
      15   Lisa has died?
      16         A.   Let me think back here. December '95 --
      17   frankly,  I don't remember if Janice was there in
      18   December of '95 or she wasn't there in December of '95.
      19   There was Janice, there was Emma.
      20         Q.   Well, let me maybe rephrase it. What
      21   organizational changes has the church -- not personnel
      22   changes.
      23         A.   Oh.
      24         Q.   What organizational changes has the church
      25   made in reference to the MLO office since the Lisa


      1    McPherson incident?
      2          A.   I don't really recall any organizational
      3    changes.
      4          Q.   Okay.
      S          A.   There was personnel changes, but I don't
      6    remember specifically which months or whether they
      7    occurred slightly before, slightly after, whatever.
      8          Q.   Okay. What was the chain of command in the
      9    office of OSA from the time that Lisa went to Morton
      10   Plant, you know, that she became involved with the
      11   Cabanas all through her death? Let's limit it to
      12   that, because we had a lot of personnel changes, but
      13   what was the chain of command of who was in charge of
      14   who then?
      15         A.   Brian was in charge of the whole office.
      16         Q.   Okay.
      17         A.   He had two junior -- well, he had several
      18   juniors. I was his direct junior, Humberto was his
      19   direct junior, different sections. Annie was his
      20   junior, different section.
      21         Q.   Okay. Was Annie your junior?
      22         A.   No.
      23         Q.   So she was equal to you and Humberto?
      24         A.   That's right but in a different section.
      25         Q.   And what section would that be, Annie?


      1          A.   She was involved with internal matters of
      2    security or anything -- that's probably not -- security
      3    isn't a very good term in the way you would use it, but
      4    anything that involves the internal matters of the
      5    church that could have an effect on external
      6    situations.
      7          Q.   Okay. Is there any -- what about Mary Story?
      8    She was in an equal line with you guys at the time or
      9    is she above you guys?
      10         A.   No. At that time she was equal.
      11         Q.   Okay.
      12         A.   She was in public relations.
      13         Q.   Now, again, we're back to other testimony,
      14   and I apologize for this, but that's the only way I can
      15   clear it up. There's been testimony by your husband,
      16   Humberto --
      17         A.   Uh-huh.
      18         Q.   -- Brian Anderson and Annie Mora that Lisa's
      19   approximately seven PC folders along with other folders
      20   were in a banker's box and located in your office in
      21   May and June of 1996, yet you testified today that
      22   in -- when you returned on January 10th in 1996 that
      23   Annie had already sent all these folders to Los
      24   Angeles.
      25         A.   Uh-huh.


      1          Q.   Now, can we clear that up with your testimony
      2    today?
      3          A.   I can only tell you what I know. I've never
      4    seen her PC folders, and I can just tell you that
      5    that' s what she answered when I asked her the question
      6    of where the PC folders went.
      7          Q.   Okay. So it's your testimony today that
      8    there were no PC folders of Lisa's or her folders in
      9    OSA or your office in May or June of 1996 --
      10         A.   That's --
      11         Q.   -- they had already been sent  to Los Angeles?
      12         A.   That's what I had been informed, and I had no
      13   reason to think otherwise, because I never saw them.
      14         Q.   Okay. Annie Mora testified that you told her
      15   to send the folders or the banker's box and ship it to
      16   Los Angeles.
      17              MR. LAURO: Time out. The testimony
      18   was, I believe, of Annie Mora that she's not sure
      19   whether it was Judy or Brian.
      20              SERGEANT ANDREWS: She was sure on who
      21   asked her to send them. She wasn't sure on a couple of
      22   the other questions of who asked her.
      23              MR. MCGARRY: I'm not sure --
      24              MR. LAURO: If you want to show me the
      25   testimony, maybe we can take a look at it.


      1               THE WITNESS: Regardless of what Annie
      2    testified, that's all I can tell you was exactly what I
      3    already said.
      5          Q.   Was it very unusual for the folders to go to
      6    Los Angeles?
      7          A.   No.
      8          Q.   Why not?
      9          A.   Well, it was what I was describing earlier.
      10   When you have a situation with a parishioner who has
      11   ended up in a situation that's not optimum, it would be
      12   normal operating basis to ship the folders to Los
      13   Angeles where they would be reviewed by a senior case
      14   counselor.
      15         Q.   And what office would that be shipped to?
      16         A.   Well, usually they would be -- as a liaison
      17   for execution purposes, they would be sent by -- either
      18   directly to office of senior -- it's called Senior Case
      19   Supervisor International, which is in Los Angeles, and
      20   if we received a request, we would get it executed in
      21   that framework.
      22         Q.   Okay. So would it be very unusual for the
      23   folders to be sent to OSA, Int. --
      24         A.   No.
      25         Q.   -- in Los Angeles?


      1          A.   Not at all. Not as a relay point.
      2          Q.   So OSA, Int. would then tell the Senior Case
      3    Supervisor International that the folders were there
      4    and he's going to do what with them?
      5          A.   They would look over the folders for
      6    information concerning what happened with the
      7    parishioner.
      8          Q.   The reason  you were moved -- removed from the
      9    post in December of 1996, you said it was because of
      10   dealings with the press. Was that because of that
      11   press release that was faxed to all of the news
      12   stations and the TV -- the newspapers and the TV
      13   stations?
      14         A.   Well, no. It was -- it was -- it was
      15   probably prior to a press release. I don't know
      16   specifically about a press release. What I know about
      17   is the contact that I think was by Tom Tobin. I'm not
      18   clear, because there was a number of media contacts at
      19   that time going on concerning the release of the
      20   autopsy report.
      21         Q.   Explain that to me. I'm not sure -- I'm not
      22   sure why you would lose a prestigious post, because
      23   you -- you didn't have the copy of the --
      24         A.   The press release.
      25         Q.   -- the autopsy report to release, did you?


      1          A.   I don't think we had it at that time.
      2          Q.   Okay. I'm still confused on why you lost
      3    your post?
      4          A.   Well, it would be because of the fact that
      5    there was an obvious case mishandling for it to get to
      6    that point where it would become something that it was
      7    of a media attention. That would be the reason.
      8          Q.   And that was your fault?
      9          A.   Sure.
      10              MR. MCGARRY: Can I interject here?
      11   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      12         Q.   My -- my question is is from talking with you
      13   here today, you got your post removed unjustly, because
      14   talking with you here today, you didn't -- you weren't
      15   around to handle this situation. Is that essentially
      16   true?
      17         A.   Well, I don't know how to answer that
      18   question.
      19         Q.   The day after, Italy, then another trip, then
      20   Boston, then LA. Completely out of the loop on the
      21   Lisa McPherson thing?
      22         A.   Uh-huh.
      23         Q.   Never seen her folders, never seen the --
      24   excuse me, I should be more specific, the PC folders?
      25         A.   Right.


      1          Q.   And yet you get blamed for screwing up the
      2    Lisa McPherson media thing?
      3          A.   Well, okay. If you could actually backtrack
      4    the entire situation, right, you could look at it from
      5    the viewpoint that anything that would come to that
      6    degree of a legal situation is ultimately my
      7    responsibility whether, at the time, I did something
      8    about it or not.
      9               MR. MCGABRY: Okay.
      10              THE WITNESS: Okay.
      11              MR. MCGARRY: Wayne, I'm sorry to
      12   interrupt you.
      13              SERGEANT ANDREWS: That's all right.
      15         Q.   Are you familiar with the press release that
      16   was faxed to the newspapers and the TV stations by
      17   Brian Anderson and Bob Johnson? Were you involved in
      18   that because you were helping Brian-- Bob Johnson?
      19         A.   To tell you the truth, there was so much
      20   media flying about for the next three days I couldn't
      21   tell you which press release went where and who and
      22   whatever. I did help Brian send -- fax some documents
      23   to different media, you know, which I would assume
      24   would have been a press release, but I don't know which
      25   came exactly which day.


      1          Q.   Okay. So you're not sure whether you faxed
      2    this press release out?
      3          A.   Yeah, because I don't know which press
      4    release you're talking about.
      5          Q.   I only saw one that was faxed out from the
      6    church. I guess everything else was handled verbally,
      7    but there was only one written press release faxed out.
      8          A.   I guess I probably wasn't. I just don't
      9    recall. Maybe it would be better to say that.
      10         Q.   Okay. Thanks. I'm a little confused. A
      11   couple of times you talked about OSA Flag.
      12         A.   Uh-huh.
      13         Q.   I thought that in our investigation that OSA
      14   was separate from Flag, that they were out on their own
      15   and they were answering to OSA, Int., but yet you've
      16   made several references. Now, what is that -- is that
      17   simply because this office of OSA represents Flag
      18   because Flag's here and that's the big service
      19   organization or --
      20         A.   Well, conceptually, that's correct. The
      21   Office of Special Affairs is part corporately of the
      22   Flag Service Organization. It is -- you know, from
      23   that viewpoint it is responsible for the corporate
      24   matters of the Flag Service Organization which is in
      25   Clearwater. It is administratively under the Office of


      1    Special Affairs International, so it would not take
      2    orders from Flag Service Organization, so there is a
      3    difference from the corporate position as opposed to an
      4    administrative. Does that answer your question?
      5          Q.   Yeah, sort of. I just wanted to clear up
      6    your reference to FLO all the time --
      7          A.   FSO.
      8          Q.   -- FSO when you were talking about Stilo and
      9    Brian. What report -- apparently the church did some
      10   type of investigation, their own investigation into
      11   Lisa.
      12         A.   At what time period now?
      13         Q.   Well, I guess we'd have to say from the time
      14   she died, okay, until just recently, because we're
      15   still -- we're still removing people from their posts.
      16   What documents do I ask for or subpoena to the church
      17   to -- to look at this investigation that the church is
      18   conducting?
      19              MR. LAURO: I'm not sure I understand
      20   the question.
      21              BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:
      22         Q.   Okay. Maybe I can summarize it. Everybody
      23   so far that had any kind of responsibility with Lisa
      24   McPherson has been demoted, and that's a loose term,
      25   "demoted." I know we use different vocabulary, but in


      1    my terms demoted including yourself, and we can name
      2    them all, Weber, Brian Anderson, your husband. We'll
      3    go on forever. Apparently that all came from an
      4    internal investigation by the church. I mean, that --
      5          A.   I don't think so. I actually don't think
      6    that that's a correct statement, and I'll just --
      7          Q.   Okay.
      8          A.   -- tell you a couple where I know that that's
      9    not the case. Annie Mora hasn't been demoted. She's
      10   been on the same position throughout the time period.
      11   Brian Anderson's committee of evidence occurred
      12   probably many, many, many months after the whole thing,
      13   and actually wasn't even specifically on the situation
      14   at all. My husband's didn't occur until a year, year
      15   and a half later and also I don't think had anything to
      16   do with this situation. Unless -- I'm not going to say
      17   that I understand what they testified for.
      18         Q.   Okay.
      19         A.   But there's like quite a bit of duration of
      20   the time period between these incidents and the people
      21   being removed from their positions. I don't know that
      22   you could say that they were all removed according to
      23   this, because if they were all going to be removed
      24   according to this, they should have been removed in the
      25   first two weeks, December of '95.


      1          Q.   Not necessarily. Under your own testimony,
      2    as the flap continued heads continued to roll --
      3          A.   Right.
      4          Q.   -- right?
      s          A.   But I could have also been put back on my
      6    position. There were, however, other things within my
      7    position as legal officer that also weren't right.
      8          Q.   All right. I guess the question would be
      9    what documents could I subpoena to either prove or
      10   disprove that? What would those be?
      11         A.   I -- I don't know, because I don't know that
      12   there was an actual investigation concerning this
      13   matter.
      14         Q.   Okay.
      15         A.   There wasn't.
      16         Q.   According to the tech and your knowledge of
      17   the tech, what documents would they be? You're a legal
      18   officer, and apparently you would handle these
      19   previously, so you should know what -- I'm only
      20   assuming, but you should know basically what the
      21   reports are or what -- the titles of the reports for
      22   those types of things.
      23         A.   There wouldn't be anything specific other
      24   than an investigation. I mean, any reports concerning
      25   the investigation would have to be a broad sort of a


      1    search question.
      2          Q.   Okay. I found it funny that -- that there
      3    was a lot of energy placed in the debriefing of the
      4    Scientology staff members that were interviewed by the
      5    police. Why was that?
      6          A.   I don't think that there was a -- I don't
      7    know about a lot of debriefing.
      8          Q.   Well--
      9          A.   What are you -- what are you referring to?
      10         Q.   I guess you were required to write a
      11   transcript which was quite a lot of work. There were
      12   also reports that you saw of handwritten debriefs by
      13   Alain Kartuzinski, Laura Arrunada, Janice Johnson and
      14   Paul Greenwood.
      15         A.   Uh-huh.
      16         Q.   Now, why would that be?
      17         A.   Because the attorney would want to have the
      18   information. They would be for the purposes of the
      19   attorney who is taking over the case.
      20         Q.   Okay.
      21         A.   The attorney I don't think was present in
      22   those different meetings, so if he's going to represent
      23   the church on the matter, he's going to have to know
      24   what, sort of conversations had been given over to
      25   different agencies.


      1          Q.   So we would write a report in the Church of
      2    Scientology to this attorney about the debriefs, but
      3    then we wouldn't write a report about our specific
      4    day-to-day contact with Lisa McPherson. I mean, those
      5    things are missing. Nobody's ever said the attorney
      6    said okay, Janice Johnson, write a report about your
      7    daily contact with Lisa McPherson, yet she had to
      8    simply write a report about the debriefing of a police
      9    officer.
      10              MR. LAURO: Wait a minute. A lawyer was
      11   not involved in the case until after she died. Until
      12   after she died -- well, let me just -- I'm sure it's a
      13   clear question, because a lawyer was not involved in
      14   this matter prior to the time that Lisa McPherson died.
      15              SERGEANT ANDREWS: Right.
      16              MR. LAURO: So there would be no
      17   circumstances where a lawyer would have directed a
      18   caretaker to write reports about Lisa McPherson's care.
      19              SERGEANT ANDREWS: Well, yeah, there
      20   would be. If you're the lawyer and you're going to
      21   represent the church and I took care of Lisa McPherson,
      22   wouldn't you ask me for a report of what I did?
      23              MR. LAURO: Are you asking me as counsel
      24   for the church?
      25              SERGEANT ANDREWS: Yeah. That's my


      1    simple question is --
      2               MR. LAURO: Why don't you just ask her
      3    that?
      4               SERGEANT ANDREWS: I thought I asked her
      5    that. I'm sorry if I didn't ask that.
      6               THE WITNESS: I found the question a
      7    little confusing.
      8               SERGEANT ANDREWS: I'm sorry.
      9               MR. LAURO: Why don't we start all over
      10   again?
      12         Q.   The problem I have is we put a lot of energy
      13   into written debriefs about what law enforcement had to
      14   ask the staff members --
      15         A.   Uh-huh.
      16         Q.   -- yet we have not had any testimony of
      17   written reports by the caretakers themselves about the
      18   care of Lisa which would be the crux of the
      19   investigation.
      20         A.   Uh-huh.
      21         Q.   Why is that?
      22         A.   It -- what you're saying is very logical. I
      23   don't know that that didn't occur in the month of
      24   December.
      25         Q.   Okay. We've been told -- we've been told --


      1    the State Attorney's been told through his subpoenas
      2    there has not, so that's what I was asking.
      3          A.   Okay.
      4          Q.   Would it be normal to destroy documents?
      5          A.   Sure. We -- you know, it's not unusual to
      6    shred things you don't need anymore.
      7          Q.   Okay. So hand -- have you ever shredded
      8    handwritten reports by people involved in your legal
      9    affairs cases that you're working with an attorney?
      10         A.   Sure.
      11         Q.   Can you give me one instance without
      12   divulging any secret stuff?
      13         A.   I can't think of a specific, but I can give
      14   you an example of what I would do.
      15         Q.   Okay.
      16         A.   Let's say I have, you know, something that
      17   somebody -- some document that's part of a lawsuit that
      18   handwriting is almost indecipherable. I would type it
      19   up where it wasn't a document that was actually part of
      20   a production or something like that, right? I'd type
      21   it up for the attorney and say this is the summation
      22   of, you know, what it is I typed up and give it over to
      23   the attorney so he has something that he can read.
      24         Q.   Okay. I got a little confused on the
      25   production. Maybe I'm not legally --


      1          A.   Well, meaning it was something that wasn't
      2    subpoenaed, like all original handwritten notes
      3    concerning blah --
      4          Q.   Okay
      5          A.   Something like that.
      6          Q.   The transcript that you did on the tapes from
      7    the attorneys, were they just to simply type out, you
      8    know, the police question and then the person's answer?
      9          A.   That's right.
      10         Q.   Is that what you did? You didn't -- you
      11   didn't summarize anything from that?
      12         A.   No, no.
      13         Q.   Okay.
      14         A.   I wasn't changing anything other than the
      15   straight transcription.
      16         Q.   Did you write a knowledge report on Annie
      17   Mora for having the reports in the folders in her
      18   office on Lisa?
      19         A.   No.
      20         Q.   Why not?
      21         A.   I probably should have.
      22         Q.   Probably should have?
      23         A.   Probably, factually. I just confronted her
      24   instead.
      25              SERGEANT ANDREWS: That's all I've got.


      1    Thank you.
      2               MR. LAURO: Before we go to Agent
      3    Strope, there's one other area that I believe you need
      4    to clarify and that's any access you've had to central
      5    file. I think you need to put that on the record as
      6    well.
      7               THE WITNESS:   Access to central file?
      8               MR. LAURO: Central file on the night of
      9    Lisa McPherson's death.
      10   BY MR. MCGARRY:
      11         Q.   First of all, what is a central file?
      12         A.   A central file is a file that's kept within
      13   the organization as a normal course of business. It
      14   has -- it's like a correspondence file. Correspondence
      15   back and forth between a church section that deals
      16   with, you know, getting parishioners on services and
      17   the parishioner themselves.
      18         Q.   Okay.
      19         A.   And each one would be contained in the file.
      20   It's called a central file. It also has like invoices
      21   of donations mainly, that sort, of thing.
      22         Q.   Okay. And Lisa McPherson had one of those?
      23         A.   Yeah, everybody does.
      24         Q.   And you looked at that, handled it? Is that
      25   where your lawyer's taking us here?


      1          A.   Yeah. That -- okay. December -- this is
      2    December -- the night that it occurred there was
      3    someone -- and I think it was Annie but I'm not
      4    positive -- who had gathered up a central file. We
      5    were trying to find out like was there a history of
      6    some illness or, you know, family members, next of kin,
      7    something, because obviously somebody had to be
      8    contacted about her death, and we wanted to figure out
      9    how to approach it, and she had brought a central file
      10   in, and there was one other file, and I actually just
      11   don't remember what the other file was, but it was
      12   something of a similar nature, and I was looking for it
      13   through Annie or, you know, at the request of Annie for
      14   time constraint purposes to see if there was anything
      15   in there that would -- that she could use.
      16         Q.   For --
      17         A.   You know, like --
      18         Q.   For medical purpose?
      19         A.   For helping contact the next of kin,
      20   whatever, something like that.
      21         Q.   All right.
      22         A.   And there wasn't anything in the file of any
      23   interest, so the file at that time I gave back to
      24   Annie, and I went back to what it was I was doing which
      25   was my preps for Italy.


      1               MR. MCGARRY: Agent Strope?
      2               SERGEANT ANDREWS: I just had a quick
      3    question I forgot on the first page.
      4               BY SERGEANT ANDREWS:
      5          Q.   Jane Jentszch, have you had contact with her
      6    in reference to the Lisa McPherson case since Lisa has
      7    died?
      8          A.   She was my auditor.
      9          Q.   Was she everybody's auditor?
      10         A.   Pretty much, yeah.
      11         Q.   Why was that?
      12         A.   Because she's an auditor from the Office of
      13   Special Affairs, so she wouldn't -- she was here to
      14   audit our staff.
      15         Q.   Okay. Did she conduct checks? I mean, was
      16   it a second check? I mean, did you receive an audit or
      17   was it a second check?
      18         A.   It actually wasn't either. What I received
      19   was an actual -- well, it's called an ethics interview
      20   and it's concerning, you know, basically somebody goofs
      21   up on their post and it's like, Okay, what's going on
      22   here? Let's see if we can get to the bottom of it and
      23   figure out what it is. It was that sort of --
      24         Q.   So Jane Jentszch may be the investigator that
      25   I'm looking to talk to probably then?


      1          A.   No, not at all. That --that's not how I was
      2    characterizing. I'm talking about for me personally
      3    make -- finding out -- it could even be anything. It
      4    doesn't even have to specifically do with Lisa
      5    McPherson. In other words, when an individual goofs it
      6    could be all sorts of causes. You know, they could be
      7    having husband and wife troubles, right? You would
      8    find out the reason why a person is having troubles
      9    with their post.
      10         Q.   Well, if you were having husband and wife
      11   problems, would Jane Jentszch fly here from LA OSA
      12   International to give you an audit?
      13         A.   Well, she was here for three months before,
      14   that.
      15         Q.   Well -- she was --
      16         A.   She had been here many months.
      17         Q.   -- had been there after Lisa died?
      18         A.   No, no, no.
      19         Q.   She came here before Lisa died?
      20         A.   Oh, yeah. She was here in September of '95.
      21   She had already been there, so it was disrelated.
      22              SERGEANT ANDREWS: That was my last one.
      23              BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
      24         Q.   Was she here during November?
      25         A.   I believe so.


      1          Q.   She was here then?
      2          A.   I believe so. I don't think she left. I
      3    don't remember any period of time where she left after
      4    she arrived in September.
      5               MR. LAURO: Could you spell her name for
      6    the record? How do you -- or even phonetically just
      7    spell it.
      8               THE WITNESS: Well, I think it's
      9    J-e-n-t-s-z-c-h, something like that.
      10              BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
      11         Q.   So she was here, as far as you know, in
      12   November of '95?
      13         A.   As far as I know.
      14         Q.   Was anyone else from Los Angeles here in
      15   November of '95 of import?
      16         A.   I don't think so. Not that I remember.
      17         Q.   What was her job, auditor?
      18         A.   Auditor, yeah. She arrived in mid September
      19   or so to audit all of the OSA staff, OSA file staff.
      20         Q.   Did she assist in any way into the
      21   investigation of Lisa?
      22         A.   Not that I know of. I mean, other than from
      23   the point of relieving anybody spiritually from
      24   whatever they had.
      25         Q.   Being she works at OSA International -- is


      1    that where she works?
      2          A.   (Nodding head.)
      3          Q.   -- would she have the power to move the files
      4    to Los Angeles?
      5          A.   You mean the pre-clear folders?
      6          Q.   Yeah, all the folders that are missing.
      7          A.   No, that wouldn't have been anything she had
      8    anything to do with.
      9          Q.   She wouldn't have had anything to do with
      10   that?
      11         A.   Not at all. It wouldn't be a counselor's job
      12   at all to do that.
      13         Q.   She's more than just a counselor, she's an
      14   OSA employee, right?
      15         A.   Her post is as counselor. She is an auditor.
      16         Q.   In the office of OSA?
      17         A.   Right.
      18         Q.   Doesn't that put her a little above just the
      19   average auditor?
      20         A.   No.
      21         Q.   No?
      22         A.   No. Their classification is what puts them
      23   above somebody else. Their classification and
      24   experience as an auditor is what puts them in a
      25   classification.


      1          Q.   Did you yourself write any reports concerning
      2    Lisa McPherson?
      3          A.   No.
      4          Q.   You wrote no reports at all?
      5          A.   No.
      6          Q.   And you were the legal officer?
      7          A.   The only thing that I would write concerning
      8    the matter would be from me to my attorney. It would
      9    be attorney/client privilege.
      10         Q.   But you didn't write anything directed to Los
      11   Angeles or to any of your superiors concerning Lisa
      12   McPherson?
      13         A.   Not that I recall.
      14         Q.   Not that you recall or you have no knowledge?
      15         A.   Not that I recall. Not that I recall.
      16         Q.   If you had written reports concerning Lisa
      17   McPherson, who would they have been directed to?
      18              MR. LAURO: You mean who was her
      19   superior at that time?
      20              BY SPECIAL AGENT STROPE:
      21         Q.   Who would the reports have been directed to?
      22         A.   Let me think who was in in December of '95.
      23   It's changed a number of times, so it would have been
      24   to someone -- well, let's see. Kurt Wieland was the
      25   one that had the other ones, so he was familiar with


      1    the matter to some degree.
      2          Q.   And his position is or was in November of
      3    '95?
      4          A.   Was deputy commander external, DCO external,
      5    Office of Special Affairs International.
      6          Q.   Were you familiar of any procedures that were
      7    being, done on Lisa prior to her car accident in
      8    November of 1995 or maybe the day of her car accident
      9    in 1995?
      10         A.   In the -- any proced -- you mean like
      11   auditing?
      12         Q.   Yeah.
      13         A.   I don't believe she was receiving any
      14   auditing.
      15         Q.   Did you yourself receive any calls from
      16   Morton Plant Hospital when Lisa was there for her
      17   accident?
      18         A.   No.
      19         Q.   You testified earlier to Mr. McGarry that you
      20   talked to Paul Kellerhals about the treatment that Lisa
      21   was getting.
      22         A.   Uh-huh.
      23         Q.   And you mentioned something about wanting to
      24   get her medical attention. What was that conversation
      25   about?


      1          A.   Well, the way I remember it is I said if she
      2    didn't -- if they couldn't figure out a way to coax her
      3    into eating, that she would need to get some medical
      4    attention.
      5          Q.   Did you tell him specifically what that
      6    medical attention should be?
      7          A.   No. I'm not a doctor.
      8          Q.   Were you talking about sending her out to a
      9    doctor or something?
      10         A.   Yeah, get a doctor.
      11         Q.   Did he mention to you something that Janice
      12   Johnson or Laura Arrunada were medical doctors?
      13         A.   No. I mean, he didn't mention them. I knew
      14   they were medical doctors.
      15         Q.   You knew. they were medical doctors?
      16         A.   No. Well, actually, that isn't even true. I
      17   knew Janice had been a medical doctor but wasn't
      18   particularly a medical doctor here. Laura, I don't
      19   know if she was ever officially a full medical doctor.
      20         Q.   Were you ever briefed by Alain Kartuzinski or
      21   Janice Johnson concerning Lisa's condition?
      22         A.   You mean at the time it was occurring?
      23         Q.   Yes.
      24         A.   No.
      25         Q.   How about after it occurring?


      1          A.   Well, just in terms of the preparations of
      2    the interviews that I was mentioning which Bob Johnson
      3    was present.
      4          Q.   So you -- your part as being a legal person
      s    was to assist an attorney in preparing a person who was
      6    going to talk to the police?,
      7          A.   Well, assisting him in whatever he needed.
      8    In other words, if he needed a note taker, I'd sit and
      9    take notes for him. If he wanted me to type up his
      10   notes like I did in the case of these interviews, I'd
      11   type them up for him. In other words, I did have the
      12   function of acting sort of similar to a secretary to
      13   him.
      14         Q.   So -- so prior to police contact, a
      15   parishioner or staff is interviewed by yourself or a
      16   legal person and an attorney?
      17         A.   They were never interviewed just by me.
      18         Q.   Okay.
      19         A.   I'm just saying --
      20         Q.   There's always an attorney present?
      21         A.   Right.
      22         Q.   Were you interviewed today prior to your
      23   testimony by the legal -- who's the legal person now?
      24         A.   Glenn Stilo? No.
      25         Q.   No?


      1          A.   Just by my attorney here.
      2          Q.   So you haven't discussed this case with Glenn
      3    Stilo at all?
      4          A.   No.
      5          Q.   Since Lisa died you haven't discussed this
      6    case with anyone?
      7               MR. LAURO: She was interviewed in LA.
      8               THE WITNESS: Right.
      10         Q.   By attorneys?
      11         A.   Twice. Twice by attorneys.
      12         Q.   By people from OSA in Los Angeles?
      13         A.   Unh-unh.
      14         Q.   You never talked about it with anyone other
      15   than attorneys?
      16         A.   Well, not unless -- I think there was one of
      17   the special affairs people present at one of those --
      18   actually, both of those attorneys meeting in the same
      19   fashion like I would assist Bob Johnson.
      20         Q.   Have you ever discussed Lisa McPherson with
      21   anyone who's been deposed here?
      22              MR. LAURO: I don't know that she knew
      23   anybody who's been deposed.
      24              THE WITNESS: Yeah, I have no idea who's
      25   been deposed.


      2          Q.   Have you ever discussed Humberto's testimony.
      3               MR. LAURO: Other than with counsel?
      5          Q.   Ever discussed Humberto's testimony?
      6          A.   With Humberto, no.
      7          Q.   Is it customary when a parishioner dies to
      8    run that scenario through your attorney? Is that
      9    something you do whenever a parishioner passes away?
      10         A.   It's not unusual.
      11         Q.   It's done whenever a parishioner dies at a
      12   local hospital or in a car accident or whatever to call
      13   your attorney first?
      14         A.   Well -- okay. It would depend on the
      15   circumstances. If it's something like obviously if a
      16   person dies on our -- you know, on the property or who
      17   had been recently on the property or something like
      18   that, it would not be unusual under those
      19   circumstances, and very frequently if it was a regular
      20   church member, yeah, we would.
      21         Q.   Part -- would part of that reasoning be to
      22   kind of suppress the shore flap, try to nip it in the
      23   bud, so to speak, as far as the press is concerned or
      24   whatever?
      25         A.   Not necessarily.


      1          Q.   Not necessarily?
      2          A.   It would be more for the purpose of finding
      3    out is there anything that we would need to execute at
      4    his instruction, or in some cases he may want to just
      5    take over the representation of the matter and have the
      6    individuals dealing with him directly. That would be
      7    at his determination.
      8          Q.   I hate to get back to these folders again,
      9    but I guess I have to. I've got one more question
      10   here, and then I think I'm done.
      11              I know whenever I work for the State of
      12   Florida, whenever we transfer files from my office to
      13   Tallahassee or from Tallahassee back there is a log
      14   kept of who requested it, when they went, what was in
      15   the files, who sends them, what it cost, in my case,
      16   how they were sent. Are there logs like that kept at
      17   OSA for that that are shipped? Is there some
      18   accountability for files that are shipped instead of
      19   just sending them off?
      20         A.   There should be. That's about the way I can
      21   explain it.
      22         Q.   Well, should be and is?
      23         A.   There should be and is are two different
      24   points. There is no specific log that says what files
      25   directly. There are certain kind of documents that may


      1    say we shipped something to Los Angeles, the time and
      2    then once it arrives on the other side it's shredded.
      3    In other words, you're not gonna keep records of
      4    everything you've ever shipped to California for an
      5    indefinite period of time.
      6          Q.   Do you keep a log on this end of what's
      7    shipped?